Sustainable Guns.

[Keith]

(21 July 2017, 23:49)harrypalmer Wrote: "Either you have not used a muzzle-loading gun Harry or what you mean is longer distance & not accuracy. In either case you would be wrong. There are accurate long distance muzzle-loading sniper rifles & even the average rifle is very accurate.
Keith. "

You'd be surprised at the range of weapons I've fired both during my Army career and with a very good friend who is 'well into' black powder/muzzle loading weapons (he uses modern rifles for hunting). The oldest rifle I have owned was an Enfield SMLE from WW1, I would say that was a lot more accurate than anything you use.

Whatever you recon Harry, each to their own.
Keith

[Mortblanc]

Over the years I have found that my BP rifles will keep up accuracy wise with my modern guns out to 100 meters when iron sights are in use. We regularly hit standard sized playing cards at 25M and occasionally candy wafers at 15m during our novelty matches. Thing is that I seldom use iron sights except for the BP guns. My scoped rifles will walk rings around the BP guns at any range from the muzzle out. I do not think any of my BP rifles will ever achieve the sub-minute of angle groups that most of my modern rifles can attain.

I live about 50 miles from a place called Friendship, Indianian, home of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association, where our national muzzle loading championship shoots take place. I am a range safety officer during the national matches. I have seen BP guns that would shoot close to MOA at those shoots but they weighed 50 pounds, had barrels 2" across the flats, were mounted on big blocks of wood 6" square and had their projectiles hammered down the bore using a brass rod and a mallet. It takes about 5 minutes to load one.

Smoothbore BP guns such as muskets and fusils I have found not so efficient. The BP guns usually have no choke and will not print the even shot patterns that modern shotguns will provide. Gun-makers worked for 400 years to develop a good choke system and it took the change to cartridge guns to get past the loading problems of the constricted muzzle for the smoothbore to become truly efficient.

The ML smoothbores shoot round ball about as well as modern shotguns place slugs out to 50 yards but I am lucky to hit the 24"x 24" target backer past the 50 yard mark with the BP smoothbore. I have .36 caliber, .50 caliber, 20 gauge and 12 gauge snoothbores on hand so I am talking about a variety of guns and many hundred rounds of shooting. I have some specially equipped modern shotguns that will place slugs inside 6" at 100M but they are both rifled and scoped.

Here in the states we also have people that feel reverting to past technology is the answer to any and every problem. They promote muzzle loaders and especially the single shot shotgun as superior to "modern" technology. You know, those "modern" pump action shotguns that were invented in the 1880s and semiautomatics that have been in use since 1900!

(Many do the same thing with optics on firearms, insisting on iron sights, ignoring the fact that scopes are a 300 year old technology and reflex sights were widely used during WW1. In the US we do not even train our military using iron sights any more and the British have a scope built into the modern Enfield)

They do so without realizing that as soon as the "off grid frontier family" could afford one of those new cartridge guns they bought one and hung the old ML gun over the mantle. It was a matter of survival, not preference. And as soon as they could afford a double barrel they retired the single shot. The only reason anyone retained the old technology after the new had arrived was because they could not afford better.

Here in the states it went even farther and as soon as the repeating rifles and shotguns were developed 5-15 shot weapons became the standard. We were fighting some pretty vicious enemies during those times. So were the British in most of the colonial areas. The frontiers of the world were not fully opened until the development of something a bit better than the single shot muzzle loader. In the US we were stopped from further settlement at the 100th meridian until repeating arms allowed us to compete with the Plains Indians on even terms. Our muzzle loading guns were no match for their horn and sinew bows.

Those famous American covered wagon trains ambling across the Great Plains of the American west had a list of required equipment which was mandatory before one was allowed to join the group. Each man was required to own a Colt repeating revolver.

As for long term survival use??? I am an American prepper with a slightly different attitude and philosophy than the British, Canadian or Ozite. When dealing with firearms the normal attitude is not which one do I want, it is "two is one and one is none so four of a kind has to be better". We buy ammo cheap and stack it deep. We will do so until our political system forces a change. At that point we will bury it all and wait for the young warriors to dig it up when the time is right.

[CharlesHarris]

I am with MB on this one.

A few simple, rugged, reliable firearms which use common ammunition which can easily be hand loaded using home-cast lead bullets, improvised bullet lubricants, and either smokeless, or if necessary, even home-made black powder.

Best bang for the buck is a sturdy Ruger single-action Blackhawk revolver, factory fitted with extra cylinder, so that you can use more than one type of ammunition. These are readily available here in either .357 Magnum, with an extra cylinder for 9mm Luger/Parabellum; or in .45 Colt with an extra .45 ACP cylinder. Also possible with some gunsmithing are a revolver in .44 Magnum with extra .44-40 cylinder, or .30 M1 Carbine, with extra cylinder for .32-20 Winchester.

Having a rifle and revolver which use the same ammunition makes the best sense, even if it is a .22 LR.

If you also have a 12-bore shotgun and a bolt-action rifle of military caliber for which surplus ammunition can be found, whether .303, .30-'06, or 8mm, that would be icing the cake.

Lean to cast bullets and reload your own. Common shotgun powder can be used for moderate power game loads to make your factory-loaded full-charge stuff so farther. Pistol primers can be used for low-powered rifle loads if you are careful, so it is necessary to stock only one type. 50,000 primers take little space, and 10kg of shotgun powder will load a great many reduced load rifle or full charge revolver cartridges for your cowboy rifle and "wheelgun."

[Skean Dhude]

I like having a variety of choices and BP has been used for a very long time. I'm certainly going to revisit it and see what is available and try some out.

[Mortblanc]

Don't get me wrong, I love my BP guns and the history that goes with them.

They have their place in a survival gun battery, but that place is not as the primary firearm.

Their place is for use when there is no danger, no stress, and no pressing need for food. Those times when a misfire or the inability to stalk to BP range will not mean death or hunger at the house.

However, I would chose my .32 flintlock over any .22LR shooter available. I am not a fan of the .22lr as a game gun but I am in the minority on that opinion.

[CharlesHarris]

I am with MB on the .22 as well.

The rimfire is fine for recreation, training and practice, but for any game larger than a cottontail rabbit or gray squirrel it is lacking. While high velocity ammunition and hollow-point bullets improve killing power on larger pest animals, they make a mess out of edible game.

My favorite small game rifle is a restored Army & Navy Cooperative Society rook rifle, which was originally a .255, which had relined to use the .32 S&W Long revolver cartridge. This is mild, quiet, accurate and very effective on larger small game animals such as woodchucks, raccoons, as well as for larger pest animals such as coyotes. Best of all there is little more meat damage than a .22 LR subsonic HP and you can eat right up to the bullet hole. Unfortunately .32 rifles are uncommon, so you must reline or rebarrel an old small-caliber centre-fire or have it scratch-built.

In mass-produced guns a lever action rifle chambered in .357 Magnum give similar small game performance and low noise when used with standard velocity .38 Special solid lead ammunition, which remains subsonic in the rifle. It also has the advantage that +P or magnum can be used for deer or similar game.

For the US prepper a .357 lever-action and companion revolver of the same caliber is truly solid kit!

A pound of common shotgun powder will load about 2000 .38 Special cartridges.

[HERNE]

(21 July 2017, 09:27)Skean Dhude Wrote: Very interesting. I must confess I have looked at this in the UK but it didn't go too far. I think your list brings home the advantages though and I'll have a look what the licensing issue is here. In the UK we have a nanny state pretty much like Oz and it could be similar.

Plenty of smooth bore blackpowder guns only require a shotgun ticket in the UK.

You would of course need a blackpowder certificate or alternatively use substitutes such as pyrodex.

Herne