Riot season

[NorthernRaider]

(2 June 2013, 23:03)Steve Wrote: Can I assume that you are part of the landed gentry ? After all, you do refer to the unions destroying "our main heavy industry".

Unions were formed by the workers, for the workers, to prevent the abuse of the workers by the "Captains of Industry" who would happily send a family to starvation in order to keep their average wage costs down.

If you are gentry, then I can see your point of view, if not then I fear you are misguided. You're not alone, thousands of people think they have a share in our country, not realizing that in fact we own nothing but the crumbs that fall off the table of the real owners.

When the economy goes completely pear-shaped, and every last penny is wrung from us, you will see who really owns the country - they'll be the ones in the gated estates with the army outside the gates - and you'll be the chap outside blaming the unions.

" Lovely race, the Romans - taught us respect"

I then assume you believe that richer preppers and preppers who own land should see their wealth and equipment siezed and redistibuted socialit fashion among the more needy?, "
Hey theres a prepper with two Merc G wagons its not fair he is richer than me , someone should make him give me part of his wealth?.

As for me I'm from a working class clouncil house background, my dad worked at ICI, his dads and uncles worked in the Durham coal fields, and we know first hand the marxist bully boy thuggery that destroyed the heavy industry in the north east.

The UNION originally served the poor workers but by the 1960s they served only themselves and their masters in moscow, I saw the initial first campaign for fair pay for miners from 68 to 71 and the cause WAS just and they got better conditions and a 27% rise, they earned every penny. But next year Scargil and Red Robbo and Livingstone started walk outs, work to rules, flying pickets, started riots, demanded insane wage ries that saw the price of Briitish coal cost more than twice than from European pits. Power cuts, brown outs, unburied dead, litter covered streets, food shortages, milk shortages, coal shortages. I saw the unions destroy British Leyland with weekly walkouts, closed shops, instant strikes oand grossly outdated work practices. I remember cases like the unions coming out on strike because the company sacked thieving employees for stealing car parts, physically attacking other employees etc. Todays unions are nothing but a corrupt mafia and are the storm troopers of militant Labour.

And do you know what Steve, these union attack did no harm to the bosses, but they hurt the ordinary working class people, it was the working classes left in the dark in mid winter, it was the working class blighted by power cuts and rationing, it was the working class who lost their jobs due to the constant industrial action. Not the ruling elite they were sat on the beaches in SanTrope with the union bosses.
And that has not changed.

Note the BA cabin crew dispute of only 2 years ago, there union leader encouraged them to strike and lose money, the strike blighed the lives of MILLIONS of working class people trying to have their budget priced holidays in the summer holidays. And as for the trade union leader !!! He booked his flights on another carrer after he crippled BAs summer schedule and flew off for a month in Cyprus.

Trade unionist do NOT serve the working class they HURT the working class with every strike, riot, work to rule walk out etc.

When the dole office staff walk out like they did two weeks ago WHO did they hurt?
When the metro train drivers walked out or the London Tube drivers go on strike WHO do they hurt?
When the teachers go on strike who do they hurt?

The unions are thugs, blackmailers, marxists, trouble makers and thugs, and they always hurt those they claim to care for.

---

I also remember my dads exasperation when he worked at ICI in the 60s, The Trade Unions and the Labour government campaigned massively for ICI to share its technology and processes to Russia for Chlorine, Cyanide and another product made on Teesside ICI which I cannot remember its name. The Unions and Labour were savage in denying the poor Russian workers the chance to make an domestic chemical of their own. So ICI sold the technology and processes under licence to the Russians and the Russians duly built their own plants and promptly starting selling it at undercut prices to ICIs own customers.

10 years later those same unions and lefties are bleating about job losses in the chemical industry on teesside where the jobs fell from 22,000 to 6,000 at the same moment their Russian counterparts were thriving.

Mind you they did exactly the same with Rolls royce jet engines, the loopy left demanding Rolls shares its engine technology with the Russians to improve aviation safety in the soviet union as the poor workers were dying in droves. Rolls duly sent em the technology and five years later the ruskies were deploying mig fighters and tupolev bombers with cloned copies of RR engines.

[Steve]

(3 June 2013, 08:45)NorthernRaider Wrote: I then assume you believe that richer preppers and preppers who own land should see their wealth and equipment siezed and redistibuted socialit fashion among the more needy?, "

Of course not, I own some land myself, but I know that my few acres is just splash in the ocean compared to the seriously wealthy people who really run the country.

(3 June 2013, 08:45)NorthernRaider Wrote: Hey theres a prepper with two Merc G wagons its not fair he is richer than me , someone should make him give me part of his wealth?.

Good luck to him, he's worked and saved, nothing wrong with that. In fact, he might have had a well paid job because at some point a union forced a company owner to pay his staff a reasonable wage. That's what they do.

(3 June 2013, 08:45)NorthernRaider Wrote: And do you know what Steve, these union attack did no harm to the bosses, but they hurt the ordinary working class people, it was the working classes left in the dark in mid winter, it was the working class blighted by power cuts and rationing, it was the working class who lost their jobs due to the constant industrial action. Not the ruling elite they were sat on the beaches in SanTrope with the union bosses.
And that has not changed.

That old "they hurt the public" chestnut has been around for years, invented no doubt by someone with a vested interest in turning public support against striking workers. Answer this, how else are workers supposed to press their claims when the bosses refuse to negotiate ? All they can do is withdraw their labour, and the government knows that for people like nurses, firemen etc. etc., that's the last thing they want to do.

(3 June 2013, 08:45)NorthernRaider Wrote: Trade unionist do NOT serve the working class they HURT the working class with every strike, riot, work to rule walk out etc.

When the dole office staff walk out like they did two weeks ago WHO did they hurt?
When the metro train drivers walked out or the London Tube drivers go on strike WHO do they hurt?
When the teachers go on strike who do they hurt?

There is no other way when the employers refuse to negotiate any further.

[NorthernRaider]

That old chesnut is simple FACT steve, FACT

When the London underground drivers go on strike as they do most weeks because a colleague is sack for thieving, fiddling or breaking some employment law exactly WHO do the strikers hurt? Is it the rich in their BMWs, Merc, Jag or chauffer driven Limos or is the the office girl , the nurse, the student, the shop worker etc?

When the miners went on strike and caused nation wide power cuts that plunged millions into the dark in mid winter, who did the unions hurt? was it the rich with their back up generators or the poor working class reliant on the mains supplies.

When the miners drove the price of domestic coal to record levels that caused fuel poverty for millions in the 70s were they bothered any more than when they murdered an innocent taxi driver taking to colliery office staff to work.

what about when the miners started pelting their fellow trade unionist firemen with rocks after fires the miners started got out of control?

When you say Employers refuse to negotiate you actually mean surrender to union demands, and that sir is why union membership like membership of the labour party is at its lowest, because the unions do not represent the workers or the working class.

---

BTW you refer to the nurses not striking and being victimised, Yup that is right my wife is a matron and she has a team of nurses under her control, and the tories have not given them a rise for three years. But when Labour and the unions were in power LABOUR implimented the NHS Agenda for change which saw my wife and her colleagues loses £300 a month even after the Labour government promised no nurses would be worse off, and their unions response when they asked for help was to say, " We have to work with the Labour government we cannot rock the boat for a few disgruntled nurses"

[Barneyboy]

(3 June 2013, 09:47)NorthernRaider Wrote: That old chesnut is simple FACT steve, FACT

When the London underground drivers go on strike as they do most weeks because a colleague is sack for thieving, fiddling or breaking some employment law exactly WHO do the strikers hurt? Is it the rich in their BMWs, Merc, Jag or chauffer driven Limos or is the the office girl , the nurse, the student, the shop worker etc?

When the miners went on strike and caused nation wide power cuts that plunged millions into the dark in mid winter, who did the unions hurt? was it the rich with their back up generators or the poor working class reliant on the mains supplies.

When the miners drove the price of domestic coal to record levels that caused fuel poverty for millions in the 70s were they bothered any more than when they murdered an innocent taxi driver taking to colliery office staff to work.

what about when the miners started pelting their fellow trade unionist firemen with rocks after fires the miners started got out of control?

When you say Employers refuse to negotiate you actually mean surrender to union demands, and that sir is why union membership like membership of the labour party is at its lowest, because the unions do not represent the workers or the working class.

---

BTW you refer to the nurses not striking and being victimised, Yup that is right my wife is a matron and she has a team of nurses under her control, and the tories have not given them a rise for three years. But when Labour and the unions were in power LABOUR implimented the NHS Agenda for change which saw my wife and her colleagues loses £300 a month even after the Labour government promised no nurses would be worse off, and their unions response when they asked for help was to say, " We have to work with the Labour government we cannot rock the boat for a few disgruntled nurses"

your wife is paid a good wage because the nurses went on strike in the the late 80s I think it was

[NorthernRaider]

(3 June 2013, 09:53)Barneyboy Wrote: your wife is paid a good wage because the nurses went on strike in the the late 80s I think it was

My wife is paid a modest wage because she has worked hard for 35 year working her way up from a war clerk to enroled nurse, to RGN, to RSCN, To RSCN Dip, to BA Hons and averages over 60 hours a week work but is paid for 37.5

LABOUR cut her pay £300 PM, LABOUR refused to increase her milage allowance after nearly doubling the cost of petrol.

Just phoned her to check and she says she nor her coleagues have ever gone on strike, but some worked to rule in the 80s but no patient care was affected. Unlike miners, etc.

---

Oh yes and let us all never forget the constant wave of news paper articles from 96 to 2005 of hospitals making nurses especially newly qualified nurses redundant whilst importing nurses from the fillipines. Now who was in charge and which unions objected??

---

And on the radio this morning we have Labour saying they want to cut Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners, particularily those pensioners who paid the most taxes over their working lives. Whilst the bone idle scum who pissed away their money in the Labour workies club during their working years and now live in state subsidised housing get to keep their money.

I'm dying to see how you two justify punishing those who work hard, save, set money aside for their old age, compaed to the feckless who did not bother. And lets not forget the welfare state has existed since 1948 so every living pensioner has had time and opportunity to save a bit extra.

[River Song]

My 2p

I'm wondering whether the debate is from two ends of the spectrum.

there has to be SOME way for the person who only has their labour to sell or skill to trade to negotiate their wages.
For the manual working classes this involves unions. At their best, they provided well for their members and negotiated fairly.

However, as has been pointed out, unions got far too fat and bloated. I lived in a mining area at the time and I also spent a lot of time in London and saw the piles of black bags uncollected. the so-called "winter of discontent".

The blessed Margaret T, did a good job in seeing of the miners and the resultant decline in union power. However, and this is my caveat about Margaret. She followed the economic theories of Prof Hayek just a little too slavishly. The trickle down theory did not work. One of her advisors at the time Brian Griffiths, who I was associated with in another sphere, warned her that 'trickle down' did not take account of one major factor - 'human greed' ---- and we know what happened.

Unrestricted capitalism is a thoroughly bad idea because of this factor and is the reason why I am NOT a libertarian, tea-party, anti NHS, etc etc. Despite what our prepper cousins might say in the USA, a mixed economy is a great idea. We just need to keep the excesses at bay and so we do --- about every 10 years or so at an election.

Having said all this, I still think we are going down the tubes so prepare.

[NorthernRaider]

I think that survivalists and preppers who believd in self attainment, self reliance, self sufficiency, etc need to look very closely with whom they interact. I see the threat from cuckoos in the nest (socialists masquerading as preppers) as a great a threat to our security as Islamic extremists, EU socialism and control freakery and this out of control totalitarian tory government.

I think the analogy of the ant and the grasshoper is particularily apt for describing Steve and Barneys politics.

---

The Ant and the Grasshopper, revised edition
The following is the Democratic "common good" version of the old favorite, the Ant and the Grasshopper:
Remember the ant and the grasshopper?
OLD VERSION . . .
The ant works hard, in the withering heat, all summer long.
He builds his house and stores supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks that the ant is a fool.
He laughs, dances and plays the summer away, preparing nothing for the coming winter.
Winter comes, the ant is safe and warm.
The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
The moral to the story being: BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NEW VERSION . . . (sad but true)
The ant works hard, in the withering heat, all summer long.
He builds his house and stores supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks that the ant is a fool.
He laughs, dances and plays the summer away, preparing nothing for the coming winter.
Winter comes, the ant is safe and warm.
The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and fed, while others are cold and starving!
BBC, ITN, SKY & Al Jazeera show up to provide pictures of shivering grasshoppers, next to a video of an ant
in his comfortable home, with a table filled with food.
Britain is stunned by the sharp contrast! How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor
grasshopper is allowed to suffer this way?
Kermit the Frog appears on Trisha, with the grasshopper.
Everyone cries when they sing "It's Not Easy Being Green".
The TUC stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house, where the news stations film the group
singing "We Shall Overcome".
Ed Milliband then has the group pray for the grasshopper's sake, and reminds the group to contribute to his group, so that he can "continue the fight" for grasshoppers, everywhere!
Ed Balls & John Prescott exclaim, in an interview on Newsnight, that the ant has gotten rich, off
the back of the poor grasshopper!
Both call for an immediate tax hike, to make the ant pay "his fair share"!
Finally, the CRE drafts the "Economic Equity For Grasshoppers Act", retroactive to the beginning of the
summer.
The ant is fined for failing to hire the proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to
pay his retroactive taxes, his house is confiscated by the government.
Cherie Blair gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper, in a defamation suit against the ant.
The case is tried in Crown court, with a jury comprised of unemployed welfare recipients.
Surprise! The ant loses the case!
The story ends, as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food, while the government house he lives in (which happens to be the ant's old house) crumbles around him,
due to lack of maintenance!
The ant has disappeared in the snow.
The grasshopper is found, dead, in a drug-related incident.
The house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders, who terrorize this once-peaceful neighborhood.
The moral of this version? Don't vote for Labour or Liberals.

Its a perfect analogy of Barney Boy and Steves politics, fun but seriously concerning because it means if such unpleasant politics exist on the forums then perhaps there are other preppers I cooperate with who share similar views and I now have to find out who if any think like that and put as much distance as I can between my group and that psychology.

---

Socialist thinking and Trade Unionism is every bit a clear and present threat to preppers and survivalists as Islam, The EU, NWO, Bilderberg group, rampant unchecked immigration, climate change, and food shortages.

[bigpaul]

this is all very interesting but we are getting into things we as preppers have no control over, certainly until the next election, and I can see SD shutting this thread down as "Political".

[Sunna]

unions yes...

commie unions no...

look at germany unions work with employers = good wages and conditions
hardly any strikes , we could learn alot from germany

[River Song]

@NR - so according to your logic you can't be a socialist and a prepper??

Only right wing libertarian preppers eh?

I am not a socialist nor a cuckoo but someone, somewhere has to
take the responsibility of countering bullying (of whatever political colour)
and also to counter the excesses of human greed.

We will take care of those who cannot help themselves but we will also
cut off those who can but won't.

He who won't work - doesn't eat