Connunications update following Polls:

[Lightspeed]

Looking at the feedback on this site and the results of the poll on possibility of using CB radio as Our primary long range network comms tool in a post SHTF world it is clear that we are insufficient in number for CB to be workable.

This means that PMR446 will be even less good as a long range communication tool.

I wanted to give CB the best possible try, as its inexpensive, setting up would have been fairly simple and a number of us already with strong knowledge and experience would accelerate the get-go . As a group we need to instigate a fast hands on training and systems testing, again the existing knowledge base would have been a big advantage. But I fear that with such a small number of declared active stations, the negative experience of assembling all of the recommended kit, hoisting up an antennas and then being met on the allotted day and time with nothing more than stubborn background hiss and not a glimmer of another prepper, will kill the whole idea of a viable comms network for a much larger number of us ……. That’s bad enough. But imagine the consequence of a supposed network that failed entirely the very first time we tried to use it in a post SHTF world?. If we’d mustered several hundred motivated individuals, a CB based solution might have been viable. With just the enthusiastic band of ten or so of us its a useless cause . Worse than useless if you believe Timelord’s perception the need for redundancy in the system to be reasonable and accurate, which I do. Going exclusively down the CB route in such small numbers is a waste of time, resource and effort, for it can only end in failure.

Parameters we are working with are that the solution must be inexpensive, not too complex and, because of our smallish number of geographically dispersed active stations, be capable of long term operation, delivering messages over hundreds of miles point to point. The solution must also be such that we as a prepper community can test and experiment with it straight away, pre-SHTF in order that we can hone our skills and adapt our stations for the best mix of performance and Opsec. Again training and testing, repeated and ongoing training and testing, are imperative and urgent.There is only one viable solution to this requirement, and that is Ham radio. I know this will be a disappointment to those of us who are already on CB and I know that there is an argument that by turning up the power we can achieve greater range with CB. But power is going to be a critically scarce recourses in a post SHTF world, I cannot see that any of us will be able to squander it when there are better solutions available. We need to make this decision with our heads, not our hearts.

With a just a few stations, each of them must be capable of long range. The range needed needs to be up to 300 miles or so, not intercontinental. It must be achievable day and night at all stages of the 11 year solar cycle. It must be achievable using simple and low power transmitters. The solution must preserve the OPSEC of the station location.

We’ve covered this elsewhere, but most point to point ( eg not repeater linked) radio transmitting systems and techniques fall into two distinct areas: Groundwave 0 to 20ish miles, and long distance 1000+miles. This is not the same as 0-1000 miles coverage. Over-simplifying the and restating this to illustrate the issue, Groundwave transmissions stop at around 20 miles, and long distance techniques start to be received at 1000 miles. Over the intervening 21 miles to 999 miles nothing is reachable.

A radio operating technique called Near Vertical Incident Skywave (NVIS) was developed by the Military precisely to meet the need to communicate between Zero and up to 300 miles range. A number of Ham radio enthusiast are active in this technique as well and a fairly large Ham radio resource is available to support our potential activity here.

Frequencies to be used for NVIS are critical: 40 meter (7Mhz) band works during daylight hours and the 80 meter (3.5Mhz) band by night . These are both Ham allocated frequency bands.
This is not just theory. My own station log records successful communication between Surrey and North Yorks, and Surrey and Cornwall using just a few watts of power.

Timelord has already voiced a very valid opinion about use of Morse code. Morse (or CW = Continuous Wave) is the most robust communications solution for NVIS too, although the NVIS technique will also support voice communication using Single Side Band (SSB). The advantages of using Morse are that the equipment has substantially better range than SSB, is less complex, more robust, consumes less power, is more user fixable, and costs less in financial terms.

NVIS transmissions on these frequencies and using these techniques will reach into the deepest of valleys and have greatest penetration of vegetation (will work well in forested locations). These transmissions will be receivable using SSB/CW capable Shortwave receivers, or even Shortwave AM receivers equipped with an inexpensive external device called a Beat Frequency Oscillator ( BFO) which will allow them to interpret the SSB /CW signals.

Antennas are the big issue with such stations. Good news is that they can be simple low tech wire construction, and that they only need to be mounted 6 to 15ft from the ground. BUT, they are long antennas. The daylight antenna 7Mhz is approx 20m = 66ft long, and the Night time antenna for 3.5Mhz twice this length. Depending on your location, this length does not have to be in a straight line, but should be pretty much parallel to the ground. Installing alongside the top of fences around the perimeter of a domestic garden sould be a viable solution.

So, are PMR 446, VHF, UHF and CB short range solutions redundant?

Absolutely no. PMR446, VHF, UHF and CB transceivers remain vital items of equipment that should be in every prepper’s kit.
Both the Ham technology described above, and these short range solutions are going to be important. Critically we must survive any SHTF transition stage first. In all thinking, start locally and work outward. If we do not command the comms ground under your feet we will never command the ground beyond it. This is where short range highly portable solutions are imperative.

In an emergency you and your family might be forced to move in a mass evacuation with large crowds. How will you know where your family is? How will you keep them together? How will you find one who is lost? How will you and your family be able to do things that others can't? Quick, effective, close-in intelligence and reconnaissance will allow you to keep your heads while others are losing theirs.

These short range solutions operate at much higher frequencies than the NVIS systems discussed above. The physics of building transceivers for higher frequencies mean that efficient antenna sizes are hugely reduced, permitting true hand-held operation.
We have already discussed this equipment in some depth and those discussions are still valid.

For anyone intending to get licensed, however, there are additional benefits that can be had immediately. Comms testing on the Ham VHF and UHF can be undertaken without attracting the negative attentions of authorities.

Conclusion and some questions:

Currently there is no organized survivor radio comms network in the UK. This weakens our survival prospects. Bug Out Bag and others have argued elsewhere, it is probably not viable to survive in the long term as an individual, we need to group together for mutual support and protection.

As a smallish group of radio comms enabled preppers we should be considering both Short range tactical solutions AND longer range solutions, and that means Ham gear.

A nationwide coverage communications system is entirely viable using NVIS techniques on Ham frequenies. Far more well equipped stations will be reachable when we look at the Ham community, but how many of those Hams will survive a SHTF event is questionable. If we want a stand alone network, with redundancy, we will probably need a dozen or so well placed stations.

A network using NVIS for trunk communications connected to PMR/UHF/VHF/CB via “local” hubs for delivery of messages to “localized” survivors is technically possible. But why would the people who have gone to the trouble of setting up the long range NVIS systems be prepared to risk their own OPSEC, consume valuable power, and wear out their equipment do to support others? Assisting in this way is somewhat like sharing your food caches with those who did not make any preparation pre-event. As far as is possible we ALL need to be capable of both types of comms to some extent. And post event we will have to use these comms capabilities with great care and prudence.

[NorthernRaider]

Good post but I feel that in the interim most folks will go the CB route primarily for cost, availability of kit, lack of regulation, and as other preppers plans progress I feel they too will add a rig to their kit when they see the hard core of other preppers have them, even if its for a " just in case " situation.

Equally in the interim I feel that most preppers care more about being able to contact other preppers when they are in their AO more so than being able to relay messages the full length of the UK. Being able to " hail" known preppers when you are passing through their AO will probably be far more useful to preppers travelling out of area than long distance messaging. Being able to get local realtime intel from the resident area prepper such as danger spots, traffic jams, incidents and perhaps the ability to call upon those local preppers for an area map, refill of water, place to park up safely overnight or to trade with is I feel likely to be the greatest benefit for preppers iin the immediate aftemath of TSHTF and in the interim until NECCESSITY drives various people to link up a better quality radio system.

[Lightspeed]

(9 July 2012, 09:52)NorthernRaider Wrote: Good post but I feel that in the interim most folks will go the CB route primarily for cost, availability of kit, lack of regulation, and as other preppers plans progress I feel they too will add a rig to their kit when they see the hard core of other preppers have them, even if its for a " just in case " situation.

Equally in the interim I feel that most preppers care more about being able to contact other preppers when they are in their AO more so than being able to relay messages the full length of the UK. Being able to " hail" known preppers when you are passing through their AO will probably be far more useful to preppers travelling out of area than long distance messaging. Being able to get local realtime intel from the resident area prepper such as danger spots, traffic jams, incidents and perhaps the ability to call upon those local preppers for an area map, refill of water, place to park up safely overnight or to trade with is I feel likely to be the greatest benefit for preppers iin the immediate aftemath of TSHTF and in the interim until NECCESSITY drives various people to link up a better quality radio system.

Good points NR, and largely I agree with you. But how many preppers are within 10 to 15 miles of you at the moment?.....and how are you going to find out? That's the probable max range you'll get with a fixed CB station and good antenna......


Using CB is excellent in theory as the equipment is relatively inexpensive and not too complex ( as already argued) but with small numbers of adopters it cannot be fashioned into a national network. Likewise, CB or PMR will only be of use in local situations if everyone has one and knows how to put it on air and keep it on air after a major grid down event.

I think it was Skves who made comments about needing to know what is going on primarily within 1 days travel of home. I think that this geographic parameter is valid and very ueseful in our comms planning. But what is 1 days travel? Its going to vary considerably because of geography.

Since March this year a small group has been testing PMR446, looking for prepper responses..... so far nothing heard, in spite of travelling many thousands of Km around the country. We know there are other preppers out there, but we've not succeeded in contacting a single one of them.

The task I have been asked to assess is how to set up a viable national comms network. For that we need to set up something and start practicing with it ahead of any SHTF event. Ham radio and NVIS will ensure that a large portion of the UK will be theoretically reachable. With our small number of stations in unknown locations its the best way to ensure a maximum number of preppers are in range.

[Bug_out_Bag]

LSWrote "Looking at the feedback on this site and the results of the poll on possibility of using CB radio as Our primary long range network comms tool in a post SHTF world it is clear that we are insufficient in number for CB to be workable."

It is really a great shame that so few people have responded to the poll and This perhaps rather worryingly corresponds to people's lack of interest in this subject and as you are at pains to point out, perhaps a lack of understanding the benefits of using any comms, particular frequencies and particular systems and modes.

I agree with what you say about relaying info to a local community, if other preppers wish to rely on those that pre event have taken the time and trouble to learn how to create, manage and use and also purchase equipment to relay information, this is a bit much

I am supposing apathy is the reason that NR has had problems in pushing this forward over the last ten years in the prepper community which is a great disappointment and shame

I have prepared some of my PSHTF comms and continue to work on this area. I have sytems set to cater for my own requirements both long and short range and will be able to keep track of my family in various parts of the UK and overseas, so I'M ALRIGHT JACK!

Thankyou for all your hard work in trying to set this up ... Y ou are my 'Comms Guru'

[NorthernRaider]

(9 July 2012, 10:13)Lightspeed Wrote: Good points NR, and largely I agree with you. But how many preppers are within 10 to 15 miles of you at the moment?.....and how are you going to find out? That's the probable max range you'll get with a fixed CB station and good antenna......


Using CB is excellent in theory as the equipment is relatively inexpensive and not too complex ( as already argued) but with small numbers of adopters it cannot be fashioned into a national network. Likewise, CB or PMR will only be of use in local situations if everyone has one and knows how to put it on air and keep it on air after a major grid down event.

I think it was Skves who made comments about needing to know what is going on primarily within 1 days travel of home. I think that this geographic parameter is valid and very ueseful in our comms planning. But what is 1 days travel? Its going to vary considerably because of geography.

Since March this year a small group has been testing PMR446, looking for prepper responses..... so far nothing heard, in spite of travelling many thousands of Km around the country. We know there are other preppers out there, but we've not succeeded in contacting a single one of them.

The task I have been asked to assess is how to set up a viable national comms network. For that we need to set up something and start practicing with it ahead of any SHTF event. Ham radio and NVIS will ensure that a large portion of the UK will be theoretically reachable. With our small number of stations in unknown locations its the best way to ensure a maximum number of preppers are in range.

My learned radio expert friend , perhaps we need to focus on local comms commonality first then once some foundations are laid encourage folks to expand upon the very simple and basic principles.

IE go CB 27 UK / EU, as local comms kit
Then to extend range post TSHTF simply add burners ?
from there simply see what evolves, Over the years in my experience as very limited as it is I feel that 90% of preppers want to keep their preps and expenses focused on LOCAL issues up to no futher than perhaps ten to twenty miles.

I'm scared that enthuisiasts like SD, yourself and myself are focusing more on what heavily commited preppers like us want, and not what the majority of ordinary preppers want. We are here to try and help newbies, and ordinary folks investing in prepping and its that 90% I think who we should be trying to help, and the more heavily involved types like TL, W & C, B-O-B etc can piggy bag on ther basic foundations to further develop their comms if they wish.

( PF I know you are reading this down Sheffield way and you rarely comment, but this is something I think folks like you and H are just begining to invest in and you should give us your opinions please)

[Lightspeed]

Thanks BoB

Maybe not apathy, but confusion with choices available and highish cost of equipment probably mean that a good number of folk are simply waiting to be told what to do rather than experimenting themselves.

We are all guilty of this in certain areas of preparations. For me the weak point is defensive wepons. I am realatively poorly equiped. This is due to worries about legislation, and the high cost of hardware. I know, recognse and intend to remedy this weakness, but am still lurking on threads trying to work out what is best for me personally.

I am trying to de-mystify radio comms so taht others can make informed choices for themselves. The only issue is taht it will be best for all of us if we adopt equipment that is compatible. This is why I am advocating PMR446 for truely close in work....they are so available and inexpensive taht everyone should have at least one pair, In addition those who can afford it and who want slightly better range CB should also be in place, and those who want absolute assurance tahtthey will be able to reach other preppers / contacts across the UK the Ham route is the way to go. Thease are not either /or decisions. They are incremental Plus Plus Plus decisions depending on the range ythat wants to be covered.

Safe prepping.

LS

[NorthernRaider]

(9 July 2012, 10:26)Bug_out_Bag Wrote: I am supposing apathy is the reason that NR has had problems in pushing this forward over the last ten years in the prepper community which is a great disappointment and shame

APATHY, APATHY, thats a word I have used very often and I now think I am very much in the wrong for blaming apathetic members for the failure of the UK prepper scene to develop as well as the US or OZ prepper scene. I'm starting to realise that I will have hurt an offended people who are cautous, conservative, uncertain or often unable to put in the sort of commitment the vocal minority of us put in.

If there is fault to be dished out I'm starting to think its me and not the more hesitant or conservative attitude of the 90%. Not everyone wants to be a full blown prepper, they perhaps see limited risk or threat to their lifestyle and dont need the indepth investment the 10% do.

I for one have to change my way, I'm got to stop this bloody judgemental attitude of some preppers I bandy about, I think we 10% need to find another way to encourage not nag or bully the 90% to perhaps come and be part of the 10%. Currently i would just be happy if PF would write something on occasion

[Lightspeed]

NR

Your comment on adding a burner to a CB set tells me that I am not getting my message cross properly.

Power is going to be a difficult to source commodity in a grid down world. Burners, quite literally burn energy and that rules them out for me. In fact I tend to favour solutions that consume absolute minimal power to get the job done. The extra groundwave range you will get by increasing power will be extremely poor, most likely you'll just end up talking to some poor Spaniar or Italian, if he's got similar power capability that is..... your signals will be luiterally over the heads of UK based preppers who will not be able to hear them at all. Trust me on this, its reality.

Each of us needs to assess who we want to hear transmitting, who we want to transmit to ( and importantly who we do not want to transmit to), over what area do we want our transmissions heard?

I predict the needs will overlay pretty neatly with SD's comms needs list. These will be close range, medium range and national. Personally I have a need for International comms as well, but I recognse that I am an exception to the rule.

[NorthernRaider]

(9 July 2012, 10:26)Bug_out_Bag Wrote: I am supposing apathy is the reason that NR has had problems in pushing this forward over the last ten years in the prepper community which is a great disappointment and shame

NO, I think my failure to do anything good, positive or worthwhile in the UK survivalist / prepper community is because I have pissed off or hurt, or annoyed or exasperated so many good people with my pushy attitude. Instead of encouraging, or helping people I have tried wrong to cajole, nag, push people and doing so I have often completely disrespected their own values and view points. ( EG Lil and her love for felines) I screwed up big time I think, I've hurt or offended good people because I did not stop and think much more about what THEY wanted, THEY needed. I think I have produced some good articles but I have not listen to others views enough, and have not respected their views enough.

Its amazing what being laid up immobile and vulnerable, loaded to the gills on pain killers can do to ones karma. plenty of time to think, revisit my writing for the last ten years and to understand full well i have probably done a lot of damage to the community because I did not listen.

If and when I get better and can get on with my life, I will continue with my plans to withdraw from the online community because it and I are getting less compatable as evey day goes by. AND if I'm not around to piuss people off and offend them then my one real dream of a unified prepper community may come to pass. I would love to see cooperation and commonality tween SUK.NET, P2S, UKP, Ludlow etc but I get thefeeling that there are to many strong personalities around who wont respond if I am involved. and I dont blaim them one bit.

Reet the ambulance bus is pulling up so I'm going home now, speak again in about an hour.

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Forgive my tardyness please LS, I'm so doped up this AM so they can shove me through the scanner I cannot think straight, Apologies.
NR

(9 July 2012, 11:07)Lightspeed Wrote: NR

Your comment on adding a burner to a CB set tells me that I am not getting my message cross properly.

Power is going to be a difficult to source commodity in a grid down world. Burners, quite literally burn energy and that rules them out for me. In fact I tend to favour solutions that consume absolute minimal power to get the job done. The extra groundwave range you will get by increasing power will be extremely poor, most likely you'll just end up talking to some poor Spaniar or Italian, if he's got similar power capability that is..... your signals will be luiterally over the heads of UK based preppers who will not be able to hear them at all. Trust me on this, its reality.

Each of us needs to assess who we want to hear transmitting, who we want to transmit to ( and importantly who we do not want to transmit to), over what area do we want our transmissions heard?

I predict the needs will overlay pretty neatly with SD's comms needs list. These will be close range, medium range and national. Personally I have a need for International comms as well, but I recognse that I am an exception to the rule.

[Lightspeed]

You are to hard on yourself NR.

We are sharing information here, that's all.

Some of us will act on that information, some not. that's fine.

Prepping is a somewhat solitary activity, although the more time spent considering options and ventualities the more it becomes apparent that a post event community of like minded similarly equipped and provisioned people will enhance their mutual survival prospects.

Maybe a bit of prepper evangelism on your part is no bad thing if it increases the number of preppers in the community. The more of us there are and the better connected we are, the better will be our chances........ I hope???

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<<I would love to see cooperation and commonality tween SUK.NET, P2S, UKP, Ludlow etc>>

I assume that SD is already in touch with these groups?