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living without a fridge/freezer
30 June 2013, 22:19, (This post was last modified: 30 June 2013, 22:25 by Tarrel.)
#11
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
(30 June 2013, 22:10)Highlander Wrote: But how did the Iceman make his ice?, we can only just buy Ice cream and get it home in a cool box from the shops an hour away,... how did he transport it after making it,... I feel a google moment coming on

Believe it or not, some of it was imported from Scandinavia! Ice in large quantities will stay frozen for a surprisingly long time. The larger the chunk, the smaller the surface-to-volume ratio.

(30 June 2013, 21:41)Highlander Wrote: After an event where we find ourselves without power, we will still have our fridges and freezers, they will still have their uses,.. Bury them in the ground and use them like a chest freezer, and keep the ground around them wet, this will almost certainly be cool enough for medicine, and I suspect for most other foods as well,.... after all, we are most likely to be eating anything fresh as and when we get it,..our stored food doesn't need refrigeration

They will be more of less rain proof, although you could always cover the door with plastic under the rock cover

I have only just remembered, SDs post reminded me but I also have a 12v fridge in the attic from my caravaning days,... thanks SD..Smile

I have just been talking to the other half about this, and she suggested that because a fridge or freezer is insulated that the fridge wouldn't keep cool enough if placed in the ground as I have suggested.
So, with that in mind, maybe a single skinned metal box may work much better

....any thoughts?

I think it depends on whether you want to make things cool or keep things cool. On a warm day the ground will be cooler than the ambient air. So putting food in an uninsulated box in the ground will cool it down relative to ambient. On the other hand, if you have already cool food and want to keep it cool, then putting it in an insulated box in the ground will help. The ground will be less warm than the air, so the insulated box will need to work less hard to keep the heat out.

(Bear in mind it's always about keeping the heat out, never keeping the "cold in". Cold is simply the absence of heat)
Find a resilient place and way to live, then sit back and watch a momentous period in history unfold.
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30 June 2013, 22:51, (This post was last modified: 30 June 2013, 22:52 by Highlander.)
#12
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
(30 June 2013, 22:19)Tarrel Wrote:
(30 June 2013, 22:10)Highlander Wrote: But how did the Iceman make his ice?, we can only just buy Ice cream and get it home in a cool box from the shops an hour away,... how did he transport it after making it,... I feel a google moment coming on

Believe it or not, some of it was imported from Scandinavia! Ice in large quantities will stay frozen for a surprisingly long time. The larger the chunk, the smaller the surface-to-volume ratio.

(30 June 2013, 21:41)Highlander Wrote: After an event where we find ourselves without power, we will still have our fridges and freezers, they will still have their uses,.. Bury them in the ground and use them like a chest freezer, and keep the ground around them wet, this will almost certainly be cool enough for medicine, and I suspect for most other foods as well,.... after all, we are most likely to be eating anything fresh as and when we get it,..our stored food doesn't need refrigeration

They will be more of less rain proof, although you could always cover the door with plastic under the rock cover

I have only just remembered, SDs post reminded me but I also have a 12v fridge in the attic from my caravaning days,... thanks SD..Smile

I have just been talking to the other half about this, and she suggested that because a fridge or freezer is insulated that the fridge wouldn't keep cool enough if placed in the ground as I have suggested.
So, with that in mind, maybe a single skinned metal box may work much better

....any thoughts?

I think it depends on whether you want to make things cool or keep things cool. On a warm day the ground will be cooler than the ambient air. So putting food in an uninsulated box in the ground will cool it down relative to ambient. On the other hand, if you have already cool food and want to keep it cool, then putting it in an insulated box in the ground will help. The ground will be less warm than the air, so the insulated box will need to work less hard to keep the heat out.

(Bear in mind it's always about keeping the heat out, never keeping the "cold in". Cold is simply the absence of heat)

I googled this, and it seems that the first guy to transport Ice was an American who cut ice from a Minnesota lake and it was transported to the West indies in 1806,.. ok not too helpful

It didn't take long for the Victorians to start doing this kind of thing,.... they would build an Ice house, a large [ usually subterranean ] house the bigger the better, close to a water source,.. they would then cut the ice in the winter and pack it into the Ice house as tight as they could, the ice was wrapped in a straw insulation, the more ice in the store the longer the ice kept, normally all year round,.. pieces of this ice were chipped off and sold

I have never seen an Ice house, but I know that similar houses were built on large Scottish Estates when they shoot hundreds of deer a week, they hung them in similar structures

None of this is much help to us as preppers though, I doubt many of us would be able to manage something like this, unless you lived in a large community

(30 June 2013, 22:19)Tarrel Wrote: I think it depends on whether you want to make things cool or keep things cool. On a warm day the ground will be cooler than the ambient air. So putting food in an uninsulated box in the ground will cool it down relative to ambient. On the other hand, if you have already cool food and want to keep it cool, then putting it in an insulated box in the ground will help. The ground will be less warm than the air, so the insulated box will need to work less hard to keep the heat out.

(Bear in mind it's always about keeping the heat out, never keeping the "cold in". Cold is simply the absence of heat)

Thats a good answer
A major part of survival is invisibility.
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30 June 2013, 23:42,
#13
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
(30 June 2013, 21:41)Highlander Wrote: I have just been talking to the other half about this, and she suggested that because a fridge or freezer is insulated that the fridge wouldn't keep cool enough if placed in the ground as I have suggested.
So, with that in mind, maybe a single skinned metal box may work much better

....any thoughts?

I think you might be right HL (apologies to your Missus! Smile). Just as the inside of a freezer will gradually warm up with the power off, so, I would think, will it gradually get cold enough when buried, the insulation then protecting the lowered temperature from fluctuations. How long that might take, I've no idea... Smile



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1 July 2013, 00:00,
#14
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
(30 June 2013, 23:42)Grumpy Grandpa Wrote:
(30 June 2013, 21:41)Highlander Wrote: I have just been talking to the other half about this, and she suggested that because a fridge or freezer is insulated that the fridge wouldn't keep cool enough if placed in the ground as I have suggested.
So, with that in mind, maybe a single skinned metal box may work much better

....any thoughts?

I think you might be right HL (apologies to your Missus! Smile). Just as the inside of a freezer will gradually warm up with the power off, so, I would think, will it gradually get cold enough when buried, the insulation then protecting the lowered temperature from fluctuations. How long that might take, I've no idea... Smile

I will let her know,,,heheheheheh
A major part of survival is invisibility.
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1 July 2013, 08:57,
#15
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
when the power goes off, bury your freezer in the garden and use it as a root cellar!Big Grin
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1 July 2013, 10:42,
#16
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
Nice one that. Something we'll all need if we're growing veg...



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1 July 2013, 16:45,
#17
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
I found a brick built cess pit from long ago cleaned it out waterproofed it and use it as a root cellar. Keeps fruit and veg in great condition. I also put up a lean to on a north facing wall to store things that are air drying like hams, herbs etc.
Failure is NOT an option
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1 July 2013, 19:58,
#18
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
Here's a link to an article about the absorption refrigeration principle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator

If you have a camping fridge that works on this principle, it should be fairly simple to modify it so that the heat can be provided by a diversity of methods. ideas that come to mind include; a solar reflector, a small heating element that acts as a dump-load for a wind-turbine, or a water jacket transferring heat from a wood burning stove. Further modify it by adding super-insulation and you wouldn't even have to run it continuously.

I think there are lots of methods of providing cooling without grid power, but they do need prepping for ahead of time. Clearly, if one imagines a total collapse that takes us back to the middle ages, then eventually breakdowns and parts availability will become problems. However, in most collapse scenarios I'd see refrigeration as still being viable (and useful).

(However, for an idea - admittedly fictional - of how this sort of refrigeration technology can go seriously pear-shaped, check out the film "The Mosquito Coast" with Harrison Ford, based on the book by Paul Theroux!)
Find a resilient place and way to live, then sit back and watch a momentous period in history unfold.
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1 July 2013, 20:17,
#19
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
A nice little project for winter. Dig a bit of a pit, fill it with snow and embed a slab of ooh, butter? in it to see how long you can keep it cold and still edible.

I've seen icehouses. Even in summer and with no ice they are very chilly. I can imagine that the addition of ice would make such a place a decent fridge. And, if the Victorians could do it without 21C technology, some of the members on this Forum are certainly capable of such a feat.
When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on.
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1 July 2013, 22:06,
#20
RE: living without a fridge/freezer
Mary, I agree it would make an excellent winter project, I think it something I will have a go at
A major part of survival is invisibility.
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