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+---- Thread: old blackpowder guns (/showthread.php?tid=6456)
RE: old blackpowder guns - Midnitemo - 1 February 2014
yeah TL i fully agree with you on the ability to reload and, i have a Lee handpress and plans to aquire all the calibres of die sets that may fall into my hands post shtf(.38 9mm .223 .308 and especially .45lc and some cases/primers/propellants) a .410 is on my wishlist and i understand what your saying about 20 gauge being lighter more wieldy and still pretty hard hitting but it just doesn't compute for me , there not available to buy now in any great numbers and there almost never a bargain the ammo off the shelf is priced at a significant premium and lacks any great choices and availability is poor , they along with the other minor bores( 28 16 10 et al) account for less than 10 percent of shotguns/ammo in circulation...the only was is to take that financial hit when you buy the gun and be prepared to make your own ammo...not really an option to most preppers though.
RE: old blackpowder guns - Talon - 7 February 2014
I agree.There are no certainties of being able to source 12 gauge.The fact remains thought that it is the most common calibre of any firearm in the UK .That's why I've decided to go with the 12,despite the size/weight of the cartridges.The 410 to me is a good compromise between weight and effectiveness,but the simple fact that it is both very expensive and also less common is troublesome.
Reloading though is a good idea and I'm looking further into it.As always it's a trade off.Do I get the reloading equipment and hope to remain stationery,or I opt for the most common gauge and hope to be able to scavenge more
.I have to admit I'm looking more and more into primitive archery as a longer term ranged tool (I must practice my archery skills more).
RE: old blackpowder guns - Mortblanc - 8 February 2014
(31 January 2014, 22:19)Midnitemo Wrote: Ive considered a 20 gauge in the past but i've never ever found any factory shells availble in 00buck AAA or any of the larger shot types.....its difficult enough buying bulk quantities of those shot types in 12 gauge in 20 its damn near impossible in the UK....i'd love a handier package but for me it's not practical with +20% dearer to buy and run a 20
The reason you do not find large sizes of buckshot in 20 gauge is simple.
!2 gauge and larger allow the large pellets to lie in rows inside the shell, 3 shot in each layer and 3-4 layers deep.
In 20 gauge one must drop down to #3 buck (.28 caliber) for the pellets to lie in layers of three.
The only advantage of these smaller shot is that instead of the 9/.35 caliber pellets of a 000 buck 12 ga load, the 20 ga provides 15 .28 caliber pellets.
As for the debate between 12ga/20ga/.410 bore you can go on into infinity.
The best answer to the unasked question is in the form of sub-caliber inserts that allow one to shot either 20 ga or .410 bore from the 12 ga gun. That ay one can use any shells one can scrounge.
I own .410 bores but can not remember the last time I used one! In contrast, I have either a 12 or 20 in my paws on a daily basis. And while 12 and 20 bore shells are 2 pounds/box over here, .410 bore sells for 4 pounds.
There are other detractions from the .410 as a survival gun, but you use what you got in many cases. If all I had was a .410 I could get by, but I would long for my 12 bore.
Do not mistake the larger bore as being of more power! It does not work that way. All bores send their charge out at almost the same speed, it is the number of shot in the charge that varies, meaning one has a better chance of getting the two or three pellets that kill into the target.
Range capabilities of the gun are determined by the choke, not by the gauge. As in how many shot stay in a usable cluster out to the target. The more shot the cartridge carries at discharge and the choke efficiency being the #1 factor in success.
One can load both 12 and 20gauge guns with a one ounce load and performance will be similar, but the lowly .410 will never be able to carry much more than 5/8 ounce of shot, making it very anemic in shot coverage of the pattern.
http://www.gunadapters.com/categories/Shotgun-Adapters/12-gauge/
http://www.gunadapters.com/categories/Shotgun-Adapters/
RE: old blackpowder guns - Timelord - 9 February 2014
All good points of discussion guys.
#### I stress that the following is hypothetical only and not in standing with any UK firearms regulations past or current! ####
Some points worth expanding from this IMO are 1) the cost of .410 ammo now will not be relevant PSHTF.
2) The list of good reasons to prefer a 12 gauge now for a host of good reasons will not be as long a list PSHTF.
3) For an all round survival gun then 3/4 ounce of shot is not far off 1 ounce. ie, only 5 lead OO buck balls the size of 9mm submachine bullets all launched simultaneously with one squeeze of the trigger flying towards One - from a range of maybe 15 to 20 feet and fired from a long barreled gun is probably as much cause for consternation as if it was 9 of the same from a 12 gauge. The next squeeze of the trigger releases the next 5. As for spread, then yes it is not as dense as 12 gauge, but at closer more historically recorded likely ranges for civil disorder situations, then it is still quite effective. Anyway - see point 4
4) ## Forget the convention of shot for shotguns or a very large mass of slug in the 12 gauge ## (12g slug which is not often loaded & used in a combat situation) --- Think, smoothbore pump or semi auto (Yes even in the UK) with a caliber of .410 (10.41mm) which is considerable in a long gun firing "BULLETS". ..... In the UK that is the equivalent of saying a pump or "semi auto assault rifle" in smoothbore! <<<
Smoothbore is not necessarily a bad thing at closer combat ranges. It can cause the bullet to be unstable as the distance increases. This is part of the reason for the fall off in accuracy as the distance increases. The instability can cause the bullet to tumble which results in much more traumatic wound channels than with rifled barrel bullets.
Here we have a weapon type as mentioned above that uses easier to aquire shotgun type ammo components than section 1 firearm rounds. (We are talking legally here .. and cheaper too if you buy in reloading components now before TSHTF) and is probably simpler to reload under field conditions and can be run adequately with expedient powders(if a pump gun). The soft lead bullets or ball can be cast around a campfire if necessary and wads can be cut out of numerous materials.
The whole reloading thing is about PSHTF, possibly mobile. Therefore a small hand loader or just a few expedient tools plus preferably a small collar type die for the shell base to be carried in ones kit, combined with a box (1000) of primers (12gauge is standard size) - is all that is necessary to keep this weapon format in operation for a long time. It uses far less propellant than the larger caliber 12 gauge which uses a considerable amount per shell compared to the usual pistol or rifle calibers
Just think how useful this weapon format might have been historically in the 18th and early 19th Centuries if it had been available. It is like a cross between a modern repeating carbine and some aspects of older blackpowder ballistics. An improvement in propellants but with smaller projectiles than BP muskets and military pistols. Ideal for closer range repeating action and lightweight and a handy size. Doubles up using shot for hunting without longer range rifle ability. No bulky box magazine to get in the way and impede gun position from cover.
I am a fan of the 12gauge, but it has some definite drawbacks when it comes down to ammo and weapon bulk/weight. This has always been an issue for it in the military but was offset by its incorporation as part of a squad fire team. The ammo could be spread amongst the squad if need be and the shotgunner was not having to tackle situations on his own. As a lonesome or very small group of survivors of a SHTF event, then this offsetting of the bulkier weapon systems disadvantages may not be possible. Because of this, many preppers/survivalists do not choose the shotgun for their primary weapon if having to choose one longarm above all others due to a dire emergency, like Get out of Dodge on foot.. This is a shame as the smoothbore weapon multi projectile launching system which the shotgun is and its historical proof of effectiveness has much to commend it if the conventional view of the shotgun can be put aside and if the economics/practicality of use now before any SHTF event - can be divorced from these same aspects for after any such unfortunate SHTF event has evolved.
Thankyou for the input folks, TL.
RE: old blackpowder guns - CharlesHarris - 9 February 2014
I agree! At practical combat ranges less than 25 metres and with the primary use at 10 metres or less, the difference in effectiveness of 5 pellets vs. 9 pellets of 00 buck is not significant.
What IS useful is a handier gun, which may be employed with alacrity, taking advantage of the lower weight and cube of .410 vs. 12- or 20-bore ammunition..
While enabling a greater quantity of lighter rounds to be carried, brass casings for r eloading the .410 can be improvised from .303 or .444 Marlin brass. A cylinder bore.410 can also fire lead bullet .38-40 or .44-40 ammunition,albeit with someloss of accuracy. It is important not to atempt firing bulleted ammunition in choke bore barrels, lest you burst the muzzle, which I have done. However, after cutting off the split muzzle behind the choke, using a tubing cutter, you are left with a .424 cylinder bore, which isideal for either shot or ball.
RE: old blackpowder guns - Mortblanc - 9 February 2014
That is hypothetical.
Very hypothetical, historically, technically, mathematically and tactically.
RE: old blackpowder guns - Midnitemo - 9 February 2014
12g is still my goto gun but I shall be getting one of those suppressed bolt action .410 as they are cyl bore I repeat cyl bore with a very compact 16 inch barrel and combined suppressor....need to see/handle one first before I cough up any money(grooved receiver for optic's too!!!!!!)
RE: old blackpowder guns - Midnitemo - 9 February 2014
The barrel is classed as 24 inch because of the mod shroud being integral....think single shot de lisle carbine on a section 2 ticket
RE: old blackpowder guns - Steve - 10 February 2014
I remain unconvinced that two weapons, one of which is twice as powerful as the other, will be "not significant" ly different.
As for weight of ammunition, well the vast majority of that weight is lead, which is what you want to launch. If you want lightweight ammo then you can get a 12g 21 gram shell and have .410 type ballistics ( but with a better pattern ).
You want a lightweight shotgun ? Try a 12g side by side, some are very light.
12g is the most versatile, many clay shooters hold thousands of cartridges and every gun shop stocks them. Every farm has a few boxes. How many .410 shells are "in circulation" compared to 12g ? I'd wager a small fraction.
RE: old blackpowder guns - Mortblanc - 10 February 2014
I was waiting for someone else to decide that
5 is not the same as 9,
3/4 is not the same as a whole,
and an 85 grain slug is not equal to a 437 grain slug!