+- Survival UK Forums (http://forum.survivaluk.net)
+-- Forum: Discussion Area (http://forum.survivaluk.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Forum: Hunting (http://forum.survivaluk.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=26)
+---- Forum: Guns (http://forum.survivaluk.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=28)
+---- Thread: old blackpowder guns (/showthread.php?tid=6456)
RE: old blackpowder guns - Timelord - 13 February 2014
DTTP. Obviously you can do basic maths then. Yes it is hypothetical discussion as stated in the post - as is a lot of stuff we talk about as it has not happened or been built yet. Historical data tends not to be hypothetical unless biast by its recorder. There is nothing technically hypothetical - the engineering side of it is already out there - for many decades. How old is the semi auto long gun design? As for the maths, then did you think I did not know that 5 was less than 9? I can also work out that 5 is more than 1.
Bigger is better!...
That idea does not work for many instances. 12gauge for hunting small game can result in - a mess. If a .410 calibre bullet is not adequate compared to a large 12gauge ("slug") type bullet for defence, then maybe we should rethink most personal combat firearms already in circulation. 21grain 12 gauge shells are not in any way as compact or lightweight as .410 shells.
The ability of licence holders to hold 1000 12g shells is a wayward point, as they could not conceivably hold or carry that many personally. 250 would be a heavy bulky lot and that would have to be carried in a backpack.
The 12 gauge is not "twice as powerful" as a .410.. How exactly do you define "Powerful"? Do you realise that while the charge is smaller, the chamber pressures in a .410 can exceed that of a 12 gauge due to the smaller chamber size and its elongated proportions compared to that of the 12 gauge? Where do you get your ballistic data from?
At 10 metres does it matter whether a shot shell fires 5 or 9 x00 buck balls to any great detriment if you take into account the design purpose of the gun? It is still 4 more (approx 8.4mm)projectiles than a single projectile gun at close quarters self defence distances. If you want more lead on target and more power to launch it, then you can always upscale again from the 12gauge and go for something really big. Where does it end? The tool should be designed for the job intended and the best usually are. Big hammers, small hammers and even bigger hammers.
My post was not all about the .410 versus the 12 gauge (that old chestnut..), it was a consideration of a versatile all round and economical to run survival type gun that could be put together if someone wished. (and could also be run on black powder or equivalent expedient propellants if in pump configuration)
Put it this way, in the UK, the only semi auto weapons (Assault rifle type genre) that can be owned on a license are .22 rimfire and shotgun (mostly section 1), of which the 12 gauge and 20 gauge predominate. Now we know the often quoted drawbacks of these two calibres of shotgun and also the weedy ammo ability of the .22 rimfire. Take the good points and versatility of each of those weapon types and attempt to minimize the disadvantages of each and that might put you somewhere around the configuration of gun I am suggesting - a compromise? - well maybe and maybe not so much for its intended purpose?..
Now obviously there is no way I would fire bullets from it as that would make it illegal in the UK and is the type of gun that in the USA the anti gun lobby is trying to ban, ie, the "semi-auto assault rifle" - which is actually a carbine of only 5.56mm. However, for the .410 proposed configuration being smoothbore and firing slugs through it in the UK under section 1 licence, it would be perfectly legal for PSG competition in semi auto mode - nice and lightweight too with plenty of spare ammo able to be carried and with the ability to convert to shot or other exotic loads. Do you get the picture? Umm, sounds interesting!
Safe journeys, TL
(the amount of 12g shells in circulation is not as relevant as you think for PSHTF and has been mentioned already in this thread, as has the cost of 12g shells versus .410 shells, as again that will not be as applicable PSHTF. Buy now cheap from SIARM - as written earlier -again)
These posts could do with moving to their own thread.
OK, not all semi auto assault rifles are the NATO 5.56mm, but you get the point. :-)
RE: old blackpowder guns - Mortblanc - 13 February 2014
TL your point IS the comparison of the 12 to the .410, otherwise it would not exist and you would not still be pushing the point.
You can do anything you wish, and believe any "modern math" equations you can muster, but there are people that consult the "experts" on "survival forums" for advice on a first purchase in their lifetime, and they deserve more than empty verbage, myth and false assumptions on which to base a decision.
This is not a topic where the one with the longest post wins. It was decided in the game fields, on the frontiers and in the trenches more than 100 years ago, and the winning choice was not the 410.
RE: old blackpowder guns - CharlesHarris - 13 February 2014
The .410 vs. 12-ga. discussion wasn't intended as a single round-against-single round comparison. You need to ask yourself, for a given weight and cube of firearm and ammunition, is your survivablity enhanced by carrying 5 kilograms of 12-ga. gun and ammunition:
Single-barrel shotgun 2.9 kg.
leaving 2.1 kg. for ammunition, each 12-ga. 9-pellet 00 buckshot round weighs 46 grams, so 2.1 kg = 46 rounds.
Pump shotgun 3.2 kg
leaving 1.8 kg. for ammunition, at 22 cartridges per kg = 39 rounds
OR 5 kgs. of .410 bore shotgun and ammunition:
Single barrel .410 shotgun weighs 2.3 kg, which leaves 2.7 kg. for ammunition
A .410 5-pellet 00 buck round weighs 26 grams each, so 2.7 kg = 104 rounds!
Pump .410 shotgun weighs 3 kg, which leaves 2 kg for ammunition, so 2000/26 = 77 rounds.
A single 00 buckshot weighs 54 grains (3.49 grams) and in typical loads has a kinetic energy of about 170 ft.-lbs. at 25 yards.
If you accept that a level of kinetic energy of delivered on a human adversary equal to that delivered by the .45 ACP M1911 Ball 230-grain service cartridge, is adequate, TWO pellet hits of 00 buck = about 340 ft.-lbs. or about the same as a .45 ACP round has remaining at 25 yards.
Within typical combat ranges, the .410 5-pellet 00 buckshot load can be depended upon from a cylinder bore barrel to produce 3 hits or more on a military "E" silhouette target 1 metre high x 1/2 metre wide.
Very few defensive gunfights take place beyond 25 yards; www.virginiacops.org/articles/shooting/combat.htm
Therefore the .410 is adequate, when you consider the additional amount of ammunition available for the survivor / evader in the basic load.
If the scenario is, the ammo supply is what you carry on your person. There is no hardware or gun store to buy more. There is no ready resupply coming from the air drop canister or falling off the truck. If you are surviving and evading, hiding, ofraging, shooting and scooting, because if you stand and fight, you'll never live longn enough to shoot'em all... Would you take your chances with your 12-ga. pumpgun and 39-40 rounds, or your lighter .410 with 77 rounds.
To ME it's an easy question.
RE: old blackpowder guns - Midnitemo - 14 February 2014
My Bob's will all have a box of cartridges in wether you're carrying a shotgun or not...i'm a big lad so would cope with a larger ammo load my pump has 2 in the mag 4 on the sidesaddle 4in the stock along with a boresnake and small cleaning kit...i use a 50's era gas mask bag as an ammo dump bag as well as my Bob which will usualy contain a box and a half of cartridges maybe 35 or so and at least one maybe 2 boxes of shells in my Bob....so my personal ammo load out will be 70 to 100 12g cartridges
RE: old blackpowder guns - Steve - 16 February 2014
I guess that's why the armies all over the world issue .410 shotguns. Oh, hang on, they don't do they. They issue 12g riot guns and trench guns, and the police forces issue 12g "cruiser" guns.
Still, your choice, no skin off my nose. You carry the .410, there's no way you can fit a 12g cartridge into it. On the other hand, I can easily fit a .410 or a 20g cartridge into a lightweight alloy converter and fire it from a 12g, although the chances of actually finding some .410 ammunition is so small it probably isn't worth carrying the converter.
RE: old blackpowder guns - Tartar Horde - 16 February 2014
This has been a good discussion from the gun members and I have come away with more knowledge than I had before. I have very little working experience of firearms, but of the half dozen farmers I know well the only two guns they keep are 12G shotty's and .22 rimfires. The majority use side by side shotguns, and bolt action .22 because they are bomb proof and last for donkey's years. In England amongst farming communities these weapons are universally used and are very common. I have never seen a .410 nor do I know of anyone owning one. From my point of view in a SHTF world it would be easy to get hold of 12g and .22, although I do understand the difference in carrying capacity viz .410.
RE: old blackpowder guns - Talon - 17 February 2014
Agreed Tartar.I've enjoyed this discussion and it's made me think.A 410 adapter for my 12 is the way I'm going.I doubt that I'll get much of a pattern from it,but it gives me the option of using 410 while keeping my current set up.My two 12's are an AYA Yeoman and a Cooey with a cylinder bore,both are rugged no frills workhorses. (Still lusting after a new bow though)
RE: old blackpowder guns - Timelord - 26 February 2014
Game fields typically fire few shells per hunting trip. Trench warfare is a military application with the military logistics and fairly limited mobility. A sole survivor will probably face much more varied scenarios. Surely the merits of a .410 can be discussed without the tired old tradition of comparing it directly to the 12 gauge. That comparison has lots of 12 gauge incorrectly applied parallels drawn to win an argument that does not need to even be argued. The fact that the military use an item of equipment does not in any way make it the best item for the job. there are many well known factors why the military often use 2nd rate or sub optimal equipment. If the standard military weapon was the best that could be , then why do soldiers buy "superior" equipment from outside suppliers? Why do different militaries use different weapons, if the best is obvious to all? Many weapons issued have not been the best. Many prototypes that have been trialled successfully have still not made it into issue service. This knowledge is there to be found in collector grade publications. We have the ability, not constrained by military supply chains to look at the subject with fresh eyes. Take on board previous research and prototype development and to come up with something tailor made to our own individual needs and not just what worked 100 years ago in trench warfare in Europe etc. That is only a small part of the evolution. My posts are sometimes long as I try to get across reasoned historical ideas and facts that are often dismissed with sound bytes and old clichés that are often only applicable to a small part of the subject area. I don't write and pass on this info in respect about what it means in my own specific situation for my own individual needs like some folks can only seem to be able to respond with. I am trying to put ideas out into the community for others to take what they can from it and to hopefully inspire better analysis for their own needs.
If bigger was always better then the world would be a funny place as this is not always the case.
A .410 will last just as long as other calibres. farmers use 12g and .22 because they do the job well and are convenient. I still do not get the repeated statement that it would be easy to get .22 and 12g in a SHTF or a PSHTF scenario. It is implied that it would be simple enough to collect it from local farms. Good luck with that! Not everyone lives near farms, so how is that useful for all the modern preppers researching on these forums. They may well get shot in the attempt after taking that kind of advice. Would it not be easier to have the ammo, components and simple reloading equipment beforehand? The prep thing we all talk about? You see this is also about ammo and obtaining it - not just about 12g versus .410. I only put the idea of a .410 forward with the express intention of reloading and stocking your own ammo supply - in advance, with reloads as and when necessary, so there would be no need to unnecessarily run the gauntlet of scavenging from farms. Can you not put aside the fixation of the proposed .410 weapon being a shotgun and so only thinking along the lines of standard shotgun lore? The proposed weapon configuration was an attempt to bridge the gap and utilize strengths between the .22rf and the standard larger shotgun set up, but in semi auto, smooth bore, variable projectile launcher guise and not as a direct comparison to either the 12g or .22rf. I will just go and bang my head against a brick wall some more. Regards, TL.
RE: old blackpowder guns - Steve - 26 February 2014
If we consider the longer term running of the gun, which will include the use of blackpowder, then we run into the problems that made large calibre weapons so popular in the past. It's impossible to make blackpowder that produces enough pressure to make sufficient power in a small bore gun. All the old guns were big calibres, it's not until the invention of smokeless propellants that calibres came down.
There are plenty of muzzle loading 12g guns around, but I don't recall ever seeing a .410 using black powder.
RE: old blackpowder guns - Mortblanc - 26 February 2014
The .410 was developed as a shot round for the ranchers in the American west, who were armed primarily with a 44-40 rifle.
They were first made as brass cased cartridges that would fire in the lever action Winchester so the men riding the fence lines and out in the back country would have small game capabilities while carrying a big bore rifle.
Eventually the manufacturers began making smoothbore guns specifically for the shot load, which was designated the .410.
The reason it is .410 and not .44 is due to the mislabeling of the parent cartridge. The .44-40 is not .44 caliber, it is .429, and the shot load had to be slightly smaller to work through the action.
But while the .44-40 rifle slug is a full 240 grain bullet, the .410 shotgun slug is a miniscule 80 grain projectile. The buckshot load is a better choice, giving one 4-5 chances for a hit rather than just one.
Of course when you compare a 3" 410 buckshot load to a 12 gauge standard 2 3/4" load you are comparing 5 pellets to 9 pellets. If you compare the 12 gauge 3 inch load you have jumped to 12 pellets. Which means that at 40 yards the 12 gauge puts more pellets on target than the .410 has in the unfired shell.
And all your targets are not going to present themselves at that perfect 10 yard range. Over here we routinely shoot ducks and geese out to 60 yards using #5 shot, and deer and bear with buckshot out to 80 yards, but not with .410s.
As to the relationship between black powder and caliber, I can assure you that a small bore black powder gun can have adequate power for general purpose use. I have several black powder guns from .30 caliber to .45 and the small bore guns are handy, use less powder and much less lead. In fact, it is the light weight bullet that disfavors them. A .30 caliber round ball is only about 50 grains. I sometimes load my .30 bp rifles with paper patched cast lead 30 caliber bullets of 100 grains and they shoot very well out to 100 yards. They are equal to our .30 carbine round or the Russian 7.62x25 smg round.
I have pulled the barrels off several surplus 8mm Mauser rifles and they made excellent muzzle loading rifles. I would expect the long barrel of the Mosin would do very well also with more length to burn a larger powder charge.
Your much loved Enfield .303 began life, and spent its first decade, as a black powder round.