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+--- Thread: the beginning of the end. (/showthread.php?tid=6557)
RE: the beginning of the end. - Tartar Horde - 23 February 2014
The sort of land I would look for is pasture that has had cattle on it, tons of manure year after year with a healthy population of worms and micro bacteria. Good pasture is kept that way for years as eventually it grows great juicy healthy Grass, and the underlying soil will be fertile for a season or two. I like your idea about Golf courses though plough the fookers up. Also allotments tend to be very healthy soil wise.
RE: the beginning of the end. - bigpaul - 24 February 2014
I don't see why we cant use horses TH to pull ploughs, my late brother in law ploughed with horses most of his working life, ok I know most horses we see these days are riding horses but I still think it would be possible, maybe use donkeys(any mules in this country?)in the old days they used oxen, so in theory any animal we could train might be used to pull a plough, although of course to begin with it'll be subsistence farming, start with a small allotment sized piece and work up from there.
we will need animals for their manure to put the goodness back into the soil after decades of "intensive"/non organic agri businesses.
RE: the beginning of the end. - NorthernRaider - 24 February 2014
Problem is horse drawn ploughs weigh a ton and take skilful handling I watched two shires being set up to pull a plough at Beamish outdoor museum and they took expert handling and the chaps who owned these huge creatures said the average horse could not pull the plough through anything cept like loamy soil, anything wet or heavy clay type soils and normal horses cannot do it.
Chances are that the owners of the few dozen plough horses in the UK will hire themselves out under contract to survivors after TSHTF, just as they did in Victorian times. (course we could always use city folk as slaves to pull the plough, cannot think of anything they would be useful as cept as beasts of burden
)
RE: the beginning of the end. - Tartar Horde - 24 February 2014
Horses with enough strength and body could be used to plough, but I reckon they would have to be quite "beefy", I don't think your average horse/s could do it, and I would be wary of causing them damage. In real terms Horses might not be too much of a problem to get hold of, but I suspect the Tack and ploughs might be quite hard to get hold of as it is old technology no one uses anymore, and I reckon the people who know how to make them are not so common either. I'm interested to know BP what type of Horses did your Brother in law use?
When I think about how the Aztecs and Inca farmed without the use of draft animals or the plough, we might have to adapt in the same way until we can re-learn the skills.
RE: the beginning of the end. - bigpaul - 24 February 2014
BIL used Shires or "carthorses" as they were called in those days, we could use bullocks as an oxen substitute, but I reckon as we'll probably be "farming" more in the smallholding way of things we're not talking the huge great ploughs you see behind tractors these days, we're talking more of a small,simple, single bladed type, you see donkeys (or more likely Mules)pulling these in the far east. they use donkeys for a lot of things in the third world.
mind you we wont be ploughing an acre a day with a donkey!(which is what a good ploughman could do with a decent pair of horses).
RE: the beginning of the end. - Midnitemo - 24 February 2014
there are a few keen draft horse keepers out there , Suffolk punch ,Clydesdales et al but there not out there in any numbers and my fear for horses post event is that a lot will fall to the butchers knife.
Percheron is a good strong tough allrounder...ride and drive....used as cavalry mounts in ww1....been wanting to get one myself for a while now as I'm to big to ride our two.
RE: the beginning of the end. - Steve - 24 February 2014
Steam engines were enough of an improvement over horses to make the considerable engineering worthwhile, but why bother to re-invent the wheel when there are thousands of old tractors that can run on bio-diesel or wood gas generators ?
All you really need is a stationary engine pulling a plough across the field by chain or cable.
RE: the beginning of the end. - bigpaul - 24 February 2014
depends on the acreage involved, might not be worth the hassle for smaller fields, I still prefer the 4 legged "tractor" anyway.
RE: the beginning of the end. - Mortblanc - 24 February 2014
I have worked farms at the pre-industrial level and there are several things which are not being considered, and some that are being considered from the wrong angle.
First, it is much easier to "tack out" oxen than horses. A yoke and a length of chain will do oxen for most work around the farm. Horses require collars, traces and harness.
Second, using barley and wheat or oats for cereal crops, planting veggies and raising stock will require 6 fertile acres per person to sustain life. That has always been the historic number for European farming without machinery.
Third, there is a limit to the amount of farming one man can do using draft animals. One drops from plowing and harrowing 50 acres a day to plowing/harrowing 1 acre a day using draft animals. That equals 6 days work per person just to get the crop into the ground. Keep in mind that all planting must be done inside a narrow window of time to meet harvest expectations and weather has an influence.
Sustenance for three people would require 18 acres, 18 days plowing with ideal weather, and fighting pests, vermin and looters for the next 8 months until harvest, which also requires intense labor and perfect weather.
The amount of pure manual labor associated with subsistence farming without machinery is absolutely astounding and beyond the capabilities of most modern people, even if they know what to do and when to do it.
If SHTF does arrive keep in mind that the full tank of petrol in your vehicle will run your rototiller for two years at a rate of work even the horse can not accomplish. So quit the concept that you will be larking about in your BOV seeking whom you might devour, passing the time of day or going to see what is over the next hill.
Yep, I got the little tractor, the tiller and 200 pounds of nitrogen based fertilizer and lime out in the shed, 50 gallons of petrol in the tanks and shed and nowhere to go, so I have the kids/grandkids set up for a couple of years. By that time they should have figured out what the horse in the back field is for.
The absolute best cereal crop for survival agriculture is maize.
It is a crop specifically developed for cultivation in large production without machinery.
Without a hint of knowledge of what an ox, horse or plow was, the Native Americans sustained cities of thousands and hundreds of thousands.
The Aztecs built floating gardens, much like our concept of a raised bed where they grew all the food needed for the sustenance of 1/2 million people on Mexico City when Cortez arrived.
There is an archeological site over here called Choaka mounds, near the city of St. Louis. It is located on the Mississippi River at the confluence of the Missouri River. That is about the same climate conditions as your Midlands up to the north country. Using intense non-mechanical cultivation they sustained a city of 40,000 without a draft animal in sight.
Maize, combined with beans and squash are known as the Three Sisters, and those three foods will provide all the nutrients needed for health and growth. They contain every vitamin, protein and amino acid required by the human body and all of them can be preserved without canning or refrigeration.
You dig up a hill of dirt, incorporate some manure into it and drop a corn seed on each side. When the corn sprouts you go back in and plant beans and squash in the center. The beans sprout and grow up the cornstalks while the squash covers the ground and prevents weed growth.
I plant an "Indian garden" every year just to show the neighborhood kids and curious visitors how it was done. Every year I am amazed at how simple the process is. I am presently enjoying the harvest of last years effort.
The Native Americans, without the plow or draft animals, were healthier than their European invaders, which is one reason that most native Americans were displayed as giants in early drawings.
This is also a great concept for a "guerilla garden" one could plant in hidden areas of sunlight among the trees of a forest, just as the Native Americans did.
Just remember, you are going to need a bigger patch than you think you are, and more time.
RE: the beginning of the end. - NorthernRaider - 24 February 2014
Wonder if Maize will grow in the north east of England ?