(31 October 2014, 15:10)bigpaul Wrote: [ -> ]DEV me old mucker, if a serious event were to happen the entire transport system would shut down in weeks never mind a decade or two. but I'm not so much talking about the infrastructure itself as what goes on around it, given that in a serious event (we ARE talking TSHTF here not some minor local difficulty)no repairs would be undertaken or even doable. without maintenance gullies and ditches flood, then they flood OVER onto the road taking silt, soil and other sedements onto the road, the water recedes but leaves behind the silt and soils, onto this is deposited seeds and other material by storms, winds and birds, these then grow onto the road bed and as I have already said within 12 months these can be a metre high or more in the case of saplings and the like, these will break up the already potholed road and make it impassable, to say nothing of fallen trees and other materials, winter flooding will undermine a lot of the roads as has happened in the last winter or two(the river road at Umberleigh on the A377 Barnstaple to Exeter road has had traffic lights due to road erosion for the last 12 months) by which time their is no road fuel left anyway so I doubt anyone is going very far, and like NR said we'll all be walking or riding anyway and it wont be motorised.
Yes agreed that 'systems' would fail very quickly, but the infrastructure would largely remain intact.
As someone in the trade, I can assure you that you really are over estimating how much maintenance is needed on roads. They will remain useable for decades, so what if a gulley is blocked (half of them already are!!) or if plants/grass start growing in the cracks and lifting the slabs (have you been on Exmoor recently), it's not going to make the roads unusable.
As for the roads suddenly being buried under several feet of soil and silt, it will not happen, OK if you get a landslide it may bury a small section, but the rest of the road will be fine.
I can show you plenty of old disused roads on Exmoor which have been gated and abandoned for 30+ years, these roads are all still passable and haven't become buried and lost......
Same with a lot of the old disused rail lines - take the Bideford to Abbotsham one as an example, that hasn't been used (or maintained) since before the first world war, although the tracks are long gone, the route is still there and hasn't deteriorated other than over hanging trees and bushes.
I've had my say, if you cant see what I'm getting at I'm not wasting my breath anymore.
we are both obviously looking at it from different angles, it seems we must agree to disagree.
(31 October 2014, 16:03)bigpaul Wrote: [ -> ]we are both obviously looking at it from different angles, it seems we must agree to disagree.
Ultimately none of us know what will actually happen, we are all just speculating until (or if) it ever goes TU.
I was just trying to see what anyone would do, in an actual situation based on what is happening in my county, I have yet to hear from a couple of the more wiser members, all I have heard so far is what wont happen-allegedly.
I think the article I referred to required the roads to not be "Heavily Trafficked" which would allow nature to reclaim the land quicker, Up here a few roads and paths laid in Roman times are still used today by ramblers some 100 years after they were built, BUT also not far from here where a new road bypassed and old road and the old road was simply closed off most of the road has completely vanished in under five years.
I have actually tagged as a reserve BOL a triangular chunk of land that was originally part of the old A19 trunk road which was replaced by a new roundabout 100 yards to the west only ten years , the two lanes are fading fast but the land between the two lanes is not like a forest.
So I reckon for a thoroughfare to disappear completely in a SHORT time period it looks like it needs to stop being used first. Other areas could disappear in a few months with a bit of flooding and undercutting.
Dev, just thinking about your comments above, some things last, some don't, up here when they built the Tees flyover on the A19 within 7 years it was falling apart, some columns sinking, others cracked and all the bearings to roadbed sat on failed completely meaning the deck could have collapsed within only a few years. And the new entrance road to teesside park has to be replared almost every year as it keeping subsiding badly.
Both sit only a mile from the Victorian built transporter bridge and newport Bridges which only need a lick of paint
NR ramblers have to use some of the tracks to keep them open, they don't stay open on their own, in some cases they have to be armed with scythes and secateurs to physically keep them open. as I said mother nature is on permanent watch to reclaim all that man has taken and she will not stop just because its TSHTF, eventually she will overtake our biggest cities and return them to woodland or even in some cases to jungle, just look at some of the architecture found in the Brazilian? jungle which first had to be cleared before anyone knew what they had found. post SHTF there WILL be no traffic as fuel supplies dwindle and die especially with a large die off of the unprepared "masses". a small number of bicycle wheels, hoof prints and even foot prints aren't going to make any difference to the growing undergrowth.
Maybe one of the wiser members could explain to this Chartered Civil Engineer, why this bridge:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Two+...d171?hl=en
or this road:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.572970...!2e0?hl=en
or any other bridge or road would suddenly vanish within a few years after any kind of SHTF event was to happen. Afterall these roads and bridges have been there for 100's of years, they are not maintained, they are not heavily trafficked, they do not have drainage etc....
They are also regularly subjected to severe floods and freezing temperatures, some of the worst weather that the UK experiences etc etc
All I'm trying to do here, is show that maybe things will not happen in the way that you think they will......
Quite correct Dev, We have loads of those stone arch bridges in Co Durham , providing they are not under scoured or battered by fallen trees from upstream, which has happened to one in Teessdale they should last for centuries, but the roads leading up to them are far more vulnerable if not trafficked and maintained. The bridge in Durham just under the Cathedral wall is typical of the design and providing the drains remain clear and don't clog up they will go on for another 1000 years BUT if the drains do clog up and no one clears them each winter the water trapped on the deck area causes ice fractures and damages the mortar as well as drives the stones apart. But even though these bridges may stand eternal the weak point is the roads and paths around them.
One of the Railway viaducts up here was built in the 1800s by the NE Railway, it served the railway for over a century, but after the Beaching cuts it was abandoned, Unfortunately no one bothered to keep the drain systems clear and within ten years the road surface was wrecked but worse thee water each winter had escaped the drains and worked the way into the brick arches themselves. By the time the lads who wanted to open up a Heritage Rail line got around to looking at the viaduct it was uneconomical to repair and it had to be demolished. Yet oddly enough another viaduct that was almost identical but its drains stayed clear was in such good condition that the council turned it into a roadway and its still in use.
Dev what I think you MAY be missing is not the vulnerability of solid great stone, concrete or steel structures standing in magnificent isolation, but the roads and rail tracks that serve them, thats the weak point, roads and rail track beds are lined by fields, trees, buildings, foliage, they are often with drains, sewers, storm drains, cable ducting etc under them. they face a continuous onslaught from play overgrowth ( Think how destructive IVY is at ruining mortar and brickwork) flooding, leaf fall, land slip, erosion, etc etc etc The bridges may last a 1000 years but without maintenance and regular traffic the roads and trackbeds will disappear.
with no inclement weather and no storms many of these bridges MIGHT last for a long time but life isn't like that, we have lots of Atlantic storms ex hurricanes downgraded which always seem to come from a south westerly direction so hit the West of the country first every time, I am thinking of something like the flooding at Boscastle and the trees and debris that TOOK OUT that old bridge along with all the cars from the car park. then there was the flooding in Somerset and on the Thames, subsidence in Dorset(killed 2 people in a road tunnel) and the train line being washed out at Dawlish and flooded at Cowley Bridge. sure the infrastructure COULD stand for ages but it wont cos its things like weather and storms more than traffic or lack of it which will do the damage and like I said in my OP if this is AFTER TSHTF they wont be repaired so how will that alter your plans?
I like this type of post, Mutual brainstorming to work out various potential outcomes really helps in making choices about Bug out Routes and even the suitability of structures in the long term
Wish we three were all sat in the pub right now to work out as many scenarios as possible, this is better than chess