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+---- Thread: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. (/showthread.php?tid=7213)
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - Steve - 18 October 2014
(18 October 2014, 12:00)NorthernRaider Wrote: BD you are wrong mate, once you agree to the terms of the licence the cops can call ANY time they like. I have had this discussion many times in recent years (and got vilified for it)
Errrr, no.
http://basc.org.uk/blog/press-releases/latest-news/unannounced-visits-to-certificate-holders-basc-advice-to-members/
Home Office Guidance:
Quote:“Where it is judged necessary, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm, the police may undertake an unannounced home visit to check the security of a certificate holder’s firearms and shotguns. It is not expected that the police will undertake an unannounced home visit at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns and the police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate.
It is recognised that there is no new power of entry for police or police staff when conducting home visits. To mitigate any misunderstanding on the part of the certificate holder the police must provide a clear and reasoned explanation to the certificate holder at the time of the visit.”
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - NorthernRaider - 19 October 2014
Errrr Yes
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/exclusive-unannounced-police-visits-legal-gun-owners-begin-40860
Updated: Unannounced police visits to legal gun owners begin
Alastair BalmainOctober 16, 201414 Comments
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“Criminal” and “terrorism” concerns lead Home Office to change guidelines to support police knocking on lawful shooters’ doors
police to make unannounced visits to certificate holders
Police concern that members of the shooting community may be “vulnerable to criminal or terrorist groups” has prompted the Home Office to update its firearms guidance to support forces in England and Wales in their intention to start making unannounced home visits to legitimate gun owners.
The policy, which is effective from today, has been introduced ostensibly to ensure certificate holders are complying with firearms security measures — this is despite the fact that the Home Office’s own figures show that theft of guns is not a widespread concern. On average, in the past five years, annually just 0.025 per cent of the 1,837,243 legally held firearms and shotguns in England and Wales were stolen — an average of just 475 guns per year. The figures are not broken down to indicate whether a firearm was stolen from a home, military or commercial environment or whether it was stolen in transit. Despite such low figures and little evidence of a genuine problem, a dedicated Crimestoppers hotline has also been launched “to encourage members of the shooting community and the general public to report any concerns about legally held firearms”. BASC called the hotline “unnecessary and inappropriate”. The Countryside Alliance has launched an e-campaign for shooters to call on their MP to oppose the police campaign which, it says “encourages an untrusting and vindictive attitude from your friends and neighbours”.
Chief Constable Andy Marsh, the national policing lead for firearms and explosives licensing, called on the shooting community to lend its support to the new measures, saying: “The public and especially the shooting community can greatly assist the police in gathering intelligence and protecting our communities by being vigilant around firearms licensing. The shooting community is close, and will recognise sudden behavioural changes in fellow shooters that could cause concerns. However, they may not feel like they can act and the Crimestoppers hotline empowers people to voice concerns anonymously.”
He added: “If you are concerned that guns are being kept insecurely or notice signs that shooters may be vulnerable to criminal or terrorist groups or have shown sympathy towards extremist acts, please report it.”
The new Home Office guidance states: “Where it is judged necessary, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm, the police may undertake an unannounced home visit to check the security of a certificate holder’s firearms and shotguns. It is not expected that the police will undertake an unannounced home visit at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns, and the police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate.”
Importantly, shooters must understand that no new power of entry has been conferred on the police or police staff, and those undertaking a visit must provide “a clear and reasoned explanation” for doing so.
In launching the measure, Chief Constable Marsh stressed that the police’s intention is not to “catch out gun owners”. He said: “I know that the vast majority of gun owners understand their responsibility to secure firearms and in the main take this very seriously, which allows their continued lawful use for work or leisure purposes.”
BASC’s Richard Ali stated that the association backs the police in their efforts to help firearms certificate holders “maintain the excellent record of safety and security in England and Wales”. He added: “Where there is specific intelligence of threat, risk or harm then the police should act.”
The Countryside Alliance has called ACPO’s campaign to target the legitimate shooting community over security concerns “unjustified and ill-judged”. The CA’s director of campaigns, Tim Bonner, said: “This campaign is exactly the sort of knee-jerk reaction to an unrelated problem that the Government had promised to avoid. It is unjustified and ill-judged, and will serve only to waste police resources and alienate a large and law abiding section of the community.
“The public appeal for information about certificate holders through Crimestoppers will encourage malicious complaints and the link made with radicalisation and terrorism is insulting and ridiculous. We have not been made aware of a single recent incident in which a licence holder has misused a firearm in pursuit of an extremist agenda.”
This latest move follows on from the introduction last year of Operation Solitaire, a community engagement project which is, according to the police, “aimed at reducing the vulnerability of those with legitimate access to firearms, to using these weapons illegally.” The operation’s target audience includes people who have “regular interaction with holders of firearms and shotgun certificates”.
Police firearms enquiry officers and neighbourhood officers have visited shooting clubs and registered firearms dealers in recent months to highlight concerns surrounding the potential for terrorists or mass killers to exist within the shooting community.
One gun club member recently wrote in an online forum for armed services personnel that his personal experience of the Operation Solitaire initiative was: “the crappiest attempt by the plod at getting us to grass each other up as lone wolf killers”.
Read more at http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/exclusive-unannounced-police-visits-legal-gun-owners-begin-40860#4exH1juMhip4Vbkc.99
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - Steve - 19 October 2014
NR, from your own link:
Quote:The new Home Office guidance states: “Where it is judged necessary, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm, the police may undertake an unannounced home visit to check the security of a certificate holder’s firearms and shotguns. It is not expected that the police will undertake an unannounced home visit at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns, and the police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate.”
Importantly, shooters must understand that no new power of entry has been conferred on the police or police staff, and those undertaking a visit must provide “a clear and reasoned explanation” for doing so.
So, in summary, they need specific intelligence of a threat and have no new powers. Shooters in the UK have to be aware of gun security, we have our security inspected when we apply for a certificate and it's not at all difficult to comply by keeping the gun where it's supposed to be - in the safe.
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - NorthernRaider - 19 October 2014
Agreed Steve but I'm equally sure you know as well as I do the police are well proven for being 'creative' in generating reasons and excuses to interfere where they should not.
Just as only last week when the Government / Liberty etc went ballistic when they found out the cops were using anti terror laws ILLEGALLY to spy on legitimate journalists phone calls. The very same situation that saw journalists imprisoned for phone hacking the cops did the same to journalists months later.
If the police are given powers they inevitably abuse or distort the use of those powers. I remember multiple chief constables being trotted out on TV saying only a few years ago that Tazors would rarely be used and only by specialist fire arms officers in dire emergencies, now we see many cops routinely using tazors AGAINSt the agreed guidelines for use. Two recent cases being a mentally handicapped child being razored and an blind, crippled elderly chap being razored for walking using a white cane.
Its a given that the cops will misuse the powers they always do. YES it may only happen occasionally but if it happened to be you or I who was targeted its end result is still going to be dire.
“Where it is judged necessary, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm"
1 WHO decides WHERE, WHY and WHEN the local cop who doesn't like your teenage son, the fire arms officer whose wife has just left him, an inspector with a political agenda, a chief constable reacting to knee jerk anti gun hysteria.
2 Specific intelligence ? Local gossip, a woman who does not like the gun owner shooting rabbits, a fit up by a tabloid paper
Who judges the decision making process ? its the cops themselves and thereby lies the problem.
FYI Steve I still think it is insane that decent hard working law abiding citizens should have to apply for the right to own an FAC or Shotgun.
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - bowdrill - 19 October 2014
Thanks steve
this is the thing here guys bottom line is if u dont want them in then dont
answer them through the window video them if you like
if your standing in your front window with your shotgun then yes I would expect a visit there they have cause for a visit
I have nothing to hide but I will excerise my right as a citizen to say no if I want to (while there is still a bit of freedom lol )
This is were organisations like basc come into there own for legal information on firearms and legal support if it should be needed
I deal a lot with firearms officers and basc has helped me in the past with restrictions on my licence and ive had an fac and shotgun for 30 years so these laws I have to be on top of
there will be some officers who will think that this is a green light for home invasion and tge quicker they know that it is not the better
but as always be polite lol
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - NorthernRaider - 19 October 2014
I reckon overall that Steve is correct in his approach, its just sods law that makes the exception to the rule
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - bigpaul - 19 October 2014
it seems in the piece I quoted that the Police were using "terrorism" as an excuse to make sure the gun owners still had the guns under lock and key. you've only got to get one force. go completely OTT and use one of those battering ram thingies to kick the door in cos no one answers the door or is never in when they call. I can see it happening even if no one else can.
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - NorthernRaider - 19 October 2014
Well Councils have been using anti terror laws and surveillance to spy on people who they simply suspect of trying to get their kids into over subscribed schools. The ONLY certainty in life is if you give bureaucrats and cops more powers they will always abuse them.
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - bigpaul - 19 October 2014
never trust anyone in authority, never trust anyone who says: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"....(SIL is a retired social worker and she hasn't got a clue about real life).
I have just seen a piece on the DM online page that says there is a new phone hotline for members of the public to ring to report registered gun owners if they think a crime has been committed and Gun owners are afraid of getting "fitted up" by the anti blood sports brigade.
RE: Police start unnanounced visits to gun owners homes. - Tigs - 20 October 2014
the only reason they will require to do this is a belief you are storing more ammo then you are permitted to store allowed be your license, its as simple as that , if you reload your own or have a small holding expect it to happen sooner rather than later, there was an article in the farming times about this over 18 months ago after a couple shot an intruder on there small holding