Israel loses the moral highground

[Highlander]

I am not on any side here,.. but on one side its the fact that Israel is continuing to take land that doesnt belong to them, from a territory that is overcrowded as it is

...and fact that if you hit a dog often enough, its likely to bite back

Why on earth they cant come to some sort of agreement I dont know, because neither side is going to get anywhere, except getting more of their people killed.

[grumpy old man]

friend today enemy tomorrow!
it's all about money and business we train people from other countries and get paid for it through (trade agreements) the we fallout and they are the enemy

when we fight we hit the other person with all we have untill they lose how ever that ends up.
so why should war be different, attack the other side with every thing you have and at some point you will have victory?

maybe if the jews did that with hitler then so many would not have died?
the brotherhood is a big world war waiting to happen the dummy got spat a long time ago with their religon we will always be the enemy!

[CovertRunning]

Well Grump, we don't have warriors anymore, just soldiers for the most part.
Public opinion is too strong for total warfare in the middle-east.

I would argue that Europe has always been under threat from external forces from the middle-east. It's a desirable place, albeit overcrowded and riddled with beaurocracy.

[Paul]

(18 November 2012, 20:59)NorthernRaider Wrote: Well to be honest I see Israel not as the innocent victim of Hamas but being as equally bad, They rightly whinge about HAMAS firing rockets into Israel, but they are still stealing more and more palestinian land to build setttlements on. And the Israelis carrying out terrorist attacks on Palestinians rarely gets mentioned either.

But for me Israel is as bad as any other hate filled bigoted entity who I have no love for, world peace would be greatly enhanced if both sides wiped each other out.

Paul I note your point most emphatically about you being wiling to see cluster bombs being used on civilian targets, perhaps you will gain some satifaction from seeing inncoent kids picking the unexploded ones up and blowing themselves up.

BOMBING, SHELLING and FIRING MISSILES into civilian areas is a WAR CRIME and MURDER by both sides , its NEVER self defence.

And dont forget the IRA learned its terror tactics from the Stern Gang and the other Israeli terror groups who murdered hundreds of British troops sent to p[rotect them.

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I assume that Paul would then agree that if Scots nationalist, OR IRA types or Sons of Owain Glyndwr shot up or blew up someone in England the right response would be to bombard Belfast, Dublin, Cardiff , Swansea, Edinburgh and Glasgow with high explosive artilery??

I'll remember that if some terrorist blows up a family member.
Mustn't get angry and exact retribution on their families because it ain't "the dun thing". Still you might change your mind if it's one of yours. There again, would you? Rules of engagement, honor, moral high ground and all that crap.

AS for playing by the international rules of war with terrorists?

The IRA didn't. They killed over 700 UK soldiers and 1800 odd civilians? 2500 souls.
The 7/7 Terrorists didn't. They killed 52.
Lets also count all the lads and lassies lost in Afghanistan to terrorists, bombs, and the green on blue crap.
3,027 coalition deaths to date.
Civilians? Dunno, wiki says thousands.

All killings done by terrorists following their international laws, rules of engagements and being VERY careful to only target legitimate targets for them, non combatant males, women, and children.

I'm done here.

[The Local Ned]

No side is innocent in this , especially if its the middle east we're talking about.

Israel is no great friend of the UK , NR is correct in that respect.

Some of the shit they did to British soldiers back then is identical to what the jihadis are/were doing.
Still , not all of them wanted the extremist tactics , some were happy enough to kidnap/release with conditions etc , others were more than happy to ambush,kill , maim , and execute.

They kidnapped and hung 2 of our int guys - we executed some of their leaders , it was - how it was ,back then.

This is now , however , and I believe I could trust the Israelis before the jihadis.

They are the lesser of the two evils.

[In the Dark]

Very few countries we haven't been at war with so to keep holding resentments you'd need a big storage space.
Britain wouldn't tolerate over a thousand rocket attacks on it's civilian population (this year so far) so why should Israel?
Iran apparently wants the Jews wiped out followed by everyone else who won't yield to Islam.
The deaths are regrettable but are also fine propaganda for Hamas hence the cynical placement of their launch sites

If you can't see the rise of Islamic extremism in all the Arab spring states as being a major threat to Britain I despair

[Scythe13]

The oddest thing, for me, is that Hamas hide their launch sites in schools, hospitals, and places like that. Places of high civilian population!

Let's pretend there was a place firing rockets at your people/family/countrymen/fellow soldiers. Would you say "Damn, we can't shoot back incase we hit a civilian?" Would you even know that the shot was coming from a school/nursery/hospital? I very much doubt you would know the layout of the enemy city (why would you? They'd execute you for stepping foot there!) Or, would you think "F**K a missile, quick, fire back at where it came from!!!" BOOM!!! You've just blown up a school.....you bastard....or patriot.....or hero! Their next missile could have been aiming at the school that had your children in. You've just taken out a missile launch area, but you've also just killed 3 female teachers and 15 children! Yes you'll feel bad. However, you've also just saved the lives of 1000's of others! So well done you.

I hate the whole 'Moral Retaliation' principle, and this is from someone that prides themselves with good morals.

Who is sickest, the people who fire on a missile platform based in a school? Or the people that placed the platform in the school in the first place? One action made civilian casualties. The other forced them to happen.

Also, the idea of killing women and children. What's the crack with that? I'm not saying it's right, but when women and children are throwing bricks at you (and bricks can easily kill) you should not fire back? Women in Palestine will pick up a gun and fire it at you. Just as a child will pick up a gun and fire at you. Are you saying you would not want to pull the trigger on them first? To be fair, I would. BANG!!! Little Junior just got smoked. Why? Because it was either him or me? NO! Because if he had gone through me, he would have had my family/friend/co-workers/fellow-soldiers/countrymen/etc.

I'm not saying Israel are right or wrong in their actions. But, what I am saying, is that their actions are understandable. Any rational person that can empathise and place themselves in someone else's position (palestine or Israel) can understand their actions (except for placing weapons platforms in positions that would lead to the execution-by-retaliation positions designed to have the focus on women and children).

I just find it odd that we can see anyone as having a higher or lower moral position. It's war.
During the crusades, pure brutality was a daily thing! This is just a similar situation, without the up close and personal experience of using a sword.


In war, there is no moral ground. There is only win or lose. If you win, you should take a moral stance and be able to justify your actions. "We bombed the mosque, because that is where we were being bombed from. We killed 10 terrorists and 100 civilians. But that site killed nearly 500 of our citizens. If we hadn't clusterbombed the area, it could have taken out another 500+ people."

As for kids picking up the unexploded cluster bombs.......what the f**k are the children doing playing with explosives? That's some good parenting if you ask me! "He kids, this area was bombed recently. Let's go play in it!!!" That's some bad parenting. If somewhere was a known mine field, would you let your kids play there? That's basically what the parents are doing. If their parents are dead, then the sense of community that will be keeping those kids away from that area, is pretty weak!!! Oh, and the authorities and clean up crews that go to sort out the site must also be pretty poor at what they do! "Hey kid, I'll give you 10 shekels for each silver tennis ball you pick up....haha, when he finds one, I'll never have to pay him."

There is no right or wrong. But some people are pretty screwed up letting kids play in bomb sites, and placing weapon centres in shopping centres! Really uncool, if you ask me.

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Sorry, I just kind of went off on one there.

[Prepaday]

Oh dear... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZP1Pe3J2...e=youtu.be

[Tigs]

(19 November 2012, 10:18)Prepaday Wrote: Oh dear... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZP1Pe3J2...e=youtu.be

scary

[Scythe13]

To be fair, if someone was killing your country, I bet you'd feel the same way?