from Off The Grid News

[cryingfreeman]

(30 January 2013, 22:06)BDG Wrote:

(30 January 2013, 21:26)Geordie_Rob Wrote: It's a good job they have all those hollow point bullets to control the gun-crazy, murderous nation & commanders willing to shoot citizens. Or don't have them as BDG says

Where did I say they did not have hollow points?

I actually said it made more sense to use hollow points for training. My mathematical analysis of the situation is irrefutable and disagreeing with it and saying the ammunition purchases show intent against citizens is tin foil hat worthy.

Careful now, that's a bit shilly. Refute this: Firing range ammunition is much cheaper stuff, not even typically used by the general public in the USA outside of ranges. Your ricochet-avoidance-in-training argument looks good, except for the fact that it's cobblers. Nobody uses hollow points in training in the USA.

Hollow points, just to reiterate, have a specific purpose: maximum damage to human flesh with minimum aiming skill. They're so horrific that they're banned for use in war under the Geneva Convention. But that's okay because when the police in the USA use them they do so because they stop in the target and don't pass on through and hit someone else. How thoughtful.

Here's another point for your irrefutable mathematical analysis: in the entire Iraq War the US military used 70 million rounds each year. That's less than 10% of this DHS 5 year option on 750 million body-destroyer hollow points. So even if they only take up one year on their option, that's 150 million hollow points for just one US government department's domestic use. Over double what the US military used each year in Iraq! And this all at a time when war is being declared on the armed sector of the American public. Coincidence?

Come on chaps, you're survivalists. You're not allowed to believe in coincidences any more!!!

[Straight Shooter]

Finally !

[BeardyMan]

(30 January 2013, 22:32)Highlander Wrote: for a start they are not very accurate, and secondly they dont travel as far as a normal round,.. both due to the fact that wind is caught in the hollow point

I thought they were more accurate due to the decreased nose weight - so give better stability in flight?

They look like they'd be wildly inaccurate though.

[BDG]

(31 January 2013, 00:25)cryingfreeman Wrote: Careful now, that's a bit shilly. Refute this: Firing range ammunition is much cheaper stuff, not even typically used by the general public in the USA outside of ranges. Your ricochet-avoidance-in-training argument looks good, except for the fact that it's cobblers. Nobody uses hollow points in training in the USA.

They are not generally used at the moment, so that means the government is buying them so it can take over? Oh wait, it is already in charge.

(31 January 2013, 00:25)cryingfreeman Wrote: Hollow points, just to reiterate, have a specific purpose: maximum damage to human flesh with minimum aiming skill. They're so horrific that they're banned for use in war under the Geneva Convention. But that's okay because when the police in the USA use them they do so because they stop in the target and don't pass on through and hit someone else. How thoughtful.

People in this thread keep on saying how bad they are, how they are banned for use in war and the damage they do. Have you seen the damage a 5.56 military round does? Or a 7.62? It does not send you to a tea party. A 7.62 in the shoulder will take your arm off. A 5.56 in the head will take what you have between your ears out of the other side.

The hollow points that have been quoted as being bought seem to be handgun rounds. The premise is that these handguns are going to be used to take semi automatic rifles from people. Ask yourself:

"would I five other people armed with pistols activly put ourselves into a gunfight against two people armed with semi automatic rifles?"

Your hollow points are going to put you at even more of a disadvantage due to their ballistic characteristics here too. Let someone know where you plan on going so they can collect your bodies and arrange your funerals.

(31 January 2013, 00:25)cryingfreeman Wrote: Here's another point for your irrefutable mathematical analysis: in the entire Iraq War the US military used 70 million rounds each year.

Your point, while coming from Maj. Gen. Jerry Curry and I think you took it from Infowars. He pulled the number out of his arse.

When you look at records from the House of Representatives, it was around 10 million rounds a month average, and that average was based on the main war and the relativley quiet period afterwards, not the periods seeing a lot of insurgent attacks and response to those attacks.

The following document discusses what is being used and the manufacturing and logistical challenges that were faced - which were and still are - a shortage of ammo.

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/sec...6250_0.HTM

(31 January 2013, 00:25)cryingfreeman Wrote: That's less than 10% of this DHS 5 year option on 750 million body-destroyer hollow points.

Body destroyer? As opposed to what? 5.56, 7.62, 9mm, .45 and .50 cal rounds that tell you to lie face down on the ground with your arms outstreched until someone plasticuffs you?

(31 January 2013, 00:25)cryingfreeman Wrote: So even if they only take up one year on their option, that's 150 million hollow points for just one US government department's domestic use.

A governments department that has many agencies under it.

(31 January 2013, 00:25)cryingfreeman Wrote: Over double what the US military used each year in Iraq!

We will disagree on what was used in Iraq, as no one really knows. Does it not shock you that a government can have recieopts for the bullets it bought, be able to do an inventory check on what it has, but still not confirm that what it has not got has been used and so say 'We used X bullets'?

And you expect this level of ineptitude to subjugate 310 million people, 80 million of whom are armed, with around 270 million guns in civilian ownership and these civilians buying 10 BILLION ROUNDS A YEAR?

(31 January 2013, 00:25)cryingfreeman Wrote: And this all at a time when war is being declared on the armed sector of the American public. Coincidence?

Oh, who signed this decleration of war? Can I see a copy of it please?

(31 January 2013, 00:25)cryingfreeman Wrote: Come on chaps, you're survivalists. You're not allowed to believe in coincidences any more!!!

I am a guy with a bit of land I get food from, I hunt, I shoot I fish. I have some stocks of foodstuff, I have skills and the tools to put them to use. All very normal things 60+ years ago in this country. People then did not define themselves as 'Survivalists' any more than people who go to work in an office now to pay their mortgage and buy the essentials of life do now.

What I believe in is that to be safe I have to rely on me more and 'them', whoever them is, less.

I stratify risk, and the way I see it, the US government replenishing its ammo stocks after more than a decade of spraying them all over the place is very, very, very low to a guy like me in the UK - its up there with the risk of catching gonorrhoea from a space angel from the planet Gloopysoup.

[cryingfreeman]

Ah, so you have half an idea and you're sticking to it no matter what. Okay, see you on here when bedlam kicks off in the USA - assuming the web is still functioning by then.

[BDG]

(31 January 2013, 13:51)cryingfreeman Wrote: Ah, so you have half an idea and you're sticking to it no matter what. Okay, see you on here when bedlam kicks off in the USA - assuming the web is still functioning by then.

No, I have a list of 'most likely'. The idea that the US govt has bought a load of ammo to take over its own country so it can be the err... government is not on the top half of the page.

Do you have a time frame for this bedlam? Just as it would be ever so tiring if it is getting put off to the next year, the next decade and so on or is it now that you and Alex Jones *KNOW* the US govt will not go ahead.

Really, if it is the case that the Govt is going to start knocking on doors asking for peoples personal, legally bought items under threat of death, what are you going to do about it.

After all, this is a site where if you are postulating something, it stands to reason you do so for the purpose of planning how to deal with or mitigate the effects? What should Americas 80 million gun owners be doing, right now, to ensure they do not get shot with *deadly* bullets? Logic dictates if they wish to survive, they should go an hand in that gun right now.

I put it to you, if you are a survivalist, then you will want to survive at all costs, and if meant handing in your irons and sucking it up in a FEMA camp, you would be right there, sitting on a large plastic box eating your mountain house ready meal you have been given.

[bigpaul]

(31 January 2013, 14:01)BDG Wrote: I put it to you, if you are a survivalist, then you will want to survive at all costs, and if meant handing in your irons and sucking it up in a FEMA camp, you would be right there, sitting on a large plastic box eating your mountain house ready meal you have been given.

i have no problem with giving up my guns/air rifles, after all there are other things we can use, but the idea of being forced into some govt camp is abhorrent to me, i think i would be gone( if things had gone that bad) long before they came banging on my door!!

[NorthernRaider]

Erm chaps, FYI not all hollow point rounds are actually hollow point in the sense you understand, whilst many hand gun rounds are actually open ended others are actually copper covered so they can remain high velocity but the hollow space under the coating allows for deformation on impact. or they can have an expansion thingy in the nose of the round to deform the round hollow point style.
Military forces are not supposed to use any rounds other than FMJ, AP or Tracer and technically our cops are breaking a geneva convention by using frangible or deforming rounds.

[BDG]

(31 January 2013, 14:07)NorthernRaider Wrote: Military forces are not supposed to use any rounds other than FMJ, AP or Tracer and technically our cops are breaking a geneva convention by using frangible or deforming rounds.

Cops are not using hollow points in declared war zones or areas of intra-national conflict. The Geneva convention does not prohibit the use of hollow points.

[Scythe13]

Just to throw a stick into the works, a 9mm is a handgun round....and an UZI round, and an MP% round, and.......you get the idea.

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MP5, not MP% haha, stupid Shift button.

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To add even more fun and games, the 9mm has greater penetration than a .45 round, used in the 1911 handgun (it's a beaut of a gun). The 9mm is better for shooting through car doors, although that means very little in regard to the hollow points.

As for what BDG says, I've heard stories of people dying from the shockwave of getting hit in the hand by a 5.56. Apparently because of the force placed into the hand, it shocks the body and the heart packs in. If the round were to hit a shoulder or larger area, the energy could dissipate and thus averting the shockwave of death!!! haha, cool name for a shockwave hu?