from Off The Grid News

[Scythe13]

(31 January 2013, 17:04)BeardyMan Wrote: All used by various divisions of both the UK and the US army too. SF can have pretty much whatever they want, or whatever is best for the job at hand.

Very true.

Spetznas (that's sooo spelt wrong) are trained to shoot most types of gun, as are the SAS, SBS, SEALS, IDF/L? /LOADS of other special forces. The only ones that can't are those that are given guns that are government issue, like SWAT or your basic military persons.

So it would seem that those needed to 'protect' the country internally, e.g. police, SWAT, etc. are all rocking the good old 9mm.

[BDG]

(31 January 2013, 16:24)Scythe13 Wrote: So these 'handgun' bullets aren't necessarily handguns.

It is handgun ammo. It would be silly to convert an M4 or M16 to fire handgun ammo. There is 9mm long gun ammo out there. That is not what has been bought. 9mm handgun ammo has.

Tell me what MP stands for in HK MP5, then tell me it is a long gun.

[NorthernRaider]

(31 January 2013, 17:56)BDG Wrote:

(31 January 2013, 16:24)Scythe13 Wrote: So these 'handgun' bullets aren't necessarily handguns.

It is handgun ammo. It would be silly to convert an M4 or M16 to fire handgun ammo. There is 9mm long gun ammo out there. That is not what has been bought. 9mm handgun ammo has.

Tell me what MP stands for in HK MP5, then tell me it is a long gun.

Machine Pistole Gerwehr they could not use Sturm Geshutz or Sturm Karbine as it had already been used by Adolf to name the first epoch Assault rifles and SMGs
And you can get a Colt Commando M16 in 9mm Parabellum
http://www.colt.com/ColtMilitary/Product...unSMG.aspx

[BDG]

(31 January 2013, 19:15)NorthernRaider Wrote: Machine Pistole Gerwehr they could not use Sturm Geshutz or Sturm Karbine as it had already been used by Adolf to name the first epoch Assault rifles and SMGs
And you can get a Colt Commando M16 in 9mm Parabellum
http://www.colt.com/ColtMilitary/Product...unSMG.aspx

So factory rather than a conversion, but still firing handgun ammo.

[NorthernRaider]

Oddly enough my favourite choice of fire arm for post apoc would be something like a Marlin Camp 9mm Carbine or a Ruger 9mm carbine the extra velocity you get from a full length barrel makes 9mm a handy round.

[cryingfreeman]

(31 January 2013, 14:01)BDG Wrote:

(31 January 2013, 13:51)cryingfreeman Wrote: Ah, so you have half an idea and you're sticking to it no matter what. Okay, see you on here when bedlam kicks off in the USA - assuming the web is still functioning by then.

No, I have a list of 'most likely'. The idea that the US govt has bought a load of ammo to take over its own country so it can be the err... government is not on the top half of the page.

Do you have a time frame for this bedlam? Just as it would be ever so tiring if it is getting put off to the next year, the next decade and so on or is it now that you and Alex Jones *KNOW* the US govt will not go ahead.

Really, if it is the case that the Govt is going to start knocking on doors asking for peoples personal, legally bought items under threat of death, what are you going to do about it.

After all, this is a site where if you are postulating something, it stands to reason you do so for the purpose of planning how to deal with or mitigate the effects? What should Americas 80 million gun owners be doing, right now, to ensure they do not get shot with *deadly* bullets? Logic dictates if they wish to survive, they should go an hand in that gun right now.

I put it to you, if you are a survivalist, then you will want to survive at all costs, and if meant handing in your irons and sucking it up in a FEMA camp, you would be right there, sitting on a large plastic box eating your mountain house ready meal you have been given.

First of all, I don't get my information on this from Alex Jones, so let's dispense with the ad hominem angle here please. AJ is nutter, IMHO, albeit one with a basically decent heart.

Secondly, what's all this timeline derailment? I never said anything about a specific date / year, so why bring it up?

Thirdly, the rhetorical question you pose about what would one do when the USG kicks doors in stateside which you back up by saying this is a site to only discuss the mitigation of survivalist issues is just pedantic claptrap mate (which I notice you seem to specialise in on this thread). I don't recall saying anything about doors being kicked in at all.

Bottom line: a retired US Army Major General John F Curry has expressed grave concerns at this development which, set against the context of NDAA (aka indefinite detention without charge or trial), TSA excesses all across the USA, armoured cars being delivered to police departments in unprecedented numbers, the massive gearing up of drone coverage in the continental USA, and the propaganda frenzy against so-called assault rifles and the Second Amendment in the wake of Sandy Hook, taken together indicate a trend. And that's a trend that anyone distrustful of an ever encroaching Big Brother government is going to find alarming and certainly not alleviated by laughable official claims about the hollow point rounds only being for training purposes, which they plainly are not normally used for.

[Scythe13]

(31 January 2013, 19:34)BDG Wrote:

(31 January 2013, 19:15)NorthernRaider Wrote: Machine Pistole Gerwehr they could not use Sturm Geshutz or Sturm Karbine as it had already been used by Adolf to name the first epoch Assault rifles and SMGs
And you can get a Colt Commando M16 in 9mm Parabellum
http://www.colt.com/ColtMilitary/Product...unSMG.aspx

So factory rather than a conversion, but still firing handgun ammo.

Thanks NR, was out with the wife so didn't have spare time to reply.

Yes factory, but you can also get conversion kits.

In which case, let's stop calling it HANDGUN ammo, and let's start calling it....Submachine gun ammo! Since it's useable by both, why not be educated and not sound like we're trying to derail someone else's view by using suggestive language (that's a very clever, but media based trick, and something I'm not a fan of), so why not call it 9mm ammo?

Calling it HANDGUN ammo makes it sound like it's only used in handguns.

Why not call 50cal sniper ammo? Or 7.62 AK ammo? Wait, isn't the 5.56 only used in SA80's? NO, that's retarded. So are all the other names for the standard NATO round. So why call 9mm ammo Handgun Ammo? Because it's suggestive language and is simply a way to make one side of the argument sound more plausible. Be fair and take it for how it is.

9mm is very clearly Sub-Machine-Gun-Anti-Fricking-Terrorist-ONLY-and-not-used-in-handguns-ammo hahahahaha.

Come one, enough being silly about calling it something it's not. It's 9mm, categorised by it's size, not the type of gun it's used in.

[BDG]

(31 January 2013, 20:21)cryingfreeman Wrote: First of all, I don't get my information on this from Alex Jones, so let's dispense with the ad hominem angle here please. AJ is nutter, IMHO, albeit one with a basically decent heart.

Secondly, what's all this timeline derailment? I never said anything about a specific date / year, so why bring it up?

Without a timeline, the statement 'see you on here when what ever happens in America' is pretty unreasonable. You are leaving it so open ended you can never be wrong.

(31 January 2013, 20:21)cryingfreeman Wrote: Thirdly, the rhetorical question you pose about what would one do when the USG kicks doors in stateside which you back up by saying this is a site to only discuss the mitigation of survivalist issues is just pedantic claptrap mate (which I notice you seem to specialise in on this thread). I don't recall saying anything about doors being kicked in at all.

Where did I say this site was only about anything, please, show me?

With regards to pedantic claptrap - I take that as an insult. If we are not accurate in what we say, we are no where. By making such an attack, you are trying to brush over the inaccurate or ill reasoned statements you have made.

If you do not like being called out to back up what you say, perhaps what you are saying needs a lot more thinking behind it.

(31 January 2013, 20:21)cryingfreeman Wrote: Bottom line: a retired US Army Major General John F Curry

Would that be the John F Curry that died 40 years ago? You are good at this, you must do it often.


You are funny.

(31 January 2013, 20:21)cryingfreeman Wrote: has expressed grave concerns at this development which, set against the context of NDAA (aka indefinite detention without charge or trial), TSA excesses all across the USA,

Been happening for 12 years under one name or another. It is not new at all.

(31 January 2013, 20:21)cryingfreeman Wrote: armoured cars being delivered to police departments in unprecedented numbers, the massive gearing up of drone coverage in the continental USA,

Well, you are seeing lots of budgets cut, you will see them cut further. It really is a case of buy now or don't get later. Drone coverage goes up when costs of drones go down, as they are doing. People have said the same thing about CCTV, about satellites and doubtless about a lot of other technology.

'Unprecedented numbers' and 'massive gearing up' says nothing more than it is a new avenue people are going down. When you compare something that is new to the past, its going to look like a big jump.

(31 January 2013, 20:21)cryingfreeman Wrote: and the propaganda frenzy against so-called assault rifles and the Second Amendment in the wake of Sandy Hook, taken together indicate a trend.

No they do not. They indicate a possible trend. Please, tell me, in all of this propaganda, how did the Big O swing it? Did he promise Oprah she could be a princess? Does Nancy Pelowski get a pony?

(31 January 2013, 20:21)cryingfreeman Wrote: And that's a trend that anyone distrustful of an ever encroaching Big Brother government is going to find alarming and certainly not alleviated by laughable official claims about the hollow point rounds only being for training purposes, which they plainly are not normally used for.

So just because you are paranoid, it does mean they are after you? Government seeks control, it seeks to increase in size, it thinks it needs information and it thinks it has the best interests of the people at heart. It does not, that is all you need to know.

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(31 January 2013, 20:45)Scythe13 Wrote: In which case, let's stop calling it HANDGUN ammo, and let's start calling it....Submachine gun ammo! Since it's useable by both, why not be educated and not sound like we're trying to derail someone else's view by using suggestive language (that's a very clever, but media based trick, and something I'm not a fan of), so why not call it 9mm ammo?

Calling it HANDGUN ammo makes it sound like it's only used in handguns.

Why not call 50cal sniper ammo? Or 7.62 AK ammo? Wait, isn't the 5.56 only used in SA80's? NO, that's retarded. So are all the other names for the standard NATO round. So why call 9mm ammo Handgun Ammo? Because it's suggestive language and is simply a way to make one side of the argument sound more plausible. Be fair and take it for how it is.

9mm is very clearly Sub-Machine-Gun-Anti-Fricking-Terrorist-ONLY-and-not-used-in-handguns-ammo hahahahaha.

Come one, enough being silly about calling it something it's not. It's 9mm, categorised by it's size, not the type of gun it's used in.

The ammo we are talking about are 9×19mm parabellum rounds. This is pistol ammo. The calibre of the round does not designate if it is pistol or long gun ammo, other characteristics - the cartridge and the propellant do. While you can get long guns that will fire handgun ammo, and the odd handgun that would fire certain long gun ammo, the terms pistol ammo / hand gun ammo are widely used in arms manufacture, sale, gun smithing, armoury within the forces and so on.

It is ammo that was designed for use in pistols. Pistol or handgun ammo generally has a muzzle velocity of around half of what a long gun or rifle ammo has. The 9×19mm Parabellum handgun round has a muzzle velocity of around 400m/s. The 9×57mm Mauser has a muzzle velocity of around 700 m/s. It is a rifle round.

Very few loads have been designed for SMG's. Most SMG's use handgun ammo - ammo that was originally designed for use in a handgun. Reason being, if you used long gun ammo, the SMG would overheat very quickly and recoil would be far too much and the larger cartridge in general would not fit with most SMG's compact size.

So, ammo designed for use in handguns is handgun ammo. Stop confusing calibre and purpose, look at the bullet length and the cartridge it sits in.

[Scythe13]

Oh okay, so you're talking about the 9x19 round? The most common round, worldwide, for submachine guns?

I'll correct myself then.

The 9x19mm HANDGUN round is only used in handguns and it isn't used in the:
H&K MP5 plus all the MP5 9mm variations
Colt M4 9mm conversion kit or factory standard fitting
Steyr AUG 9mm conversion kit or factory standard fitting
Walther MPL 9mm
Gilboa 9mm
UZI 9mm
MP40 (yes the WW2 gun) 9mm

Another rep point goes to the person that can tell me, with evidence, which of the above guns DOES shoot the 9x19 round. Little trick, check them all and come back to me.

Once again, calling the 9mm a pistol/handgun ammunition is misleading and suggestive language, used by the media to drive home a single idea to get people looking at ONE point of view. I say again, it's a clever way to get your point across, but it's not accurate portrayal. Yes the 9mm is also the most common round for handguns, and was originally designed by the Germans (that might be wrong, but I remember it being called the Luger 9mm or something like that in a school project years ago). The fact it was designed for a specific purpose is not important. Again, let's look at the 50cal shall we? Is that the 50cal sniper round, or the 50cal anti-aircraft round? If we're talking about how dangerous they are to aircraft, I'm not going to call it the 50cal sniper round am I? I'll call it the 50cal anti-aircraft round. It's not correct representation of the situation.


Furthermore, I would like to add........I'm pretty sure I remember Americans shooting hollow points. So I did the one thing I know how to....send an email to a friend. He's only just replied.

Want to know what happened? One email reply later, and a heap of embarrassment....they're legal!!! WHAT?!?!? WHAT IS LEGAL?!?!?! I hear you all screaming?
The 9mm hollow point round.
You can apparently buy them from WalMart (no joke), although the 'Federal' ammo (WalMart's own brand, haha imagine it, Tesco Savers 9mm Hollow Points) is much cheaper.

I felt dumb when I said about the Geneva Convention and he replied with "Dam no son. Everyone in law enforcement evn the [insert expletive beginning with P] in NJ (I assume New Jersey) be using hollows. Were did you hear that [inset expletive starting with S]?"
Copied and pasted, with a could of obvious modifications, from my friends response.

I felt so dumb when I said about the Geneva Convention.
To everyone quoting the Geneva Convention, it turns out the Haige convention banned expanding bullets in international wars. Not the GV. Internal situations/law enforcement/civilians (except in NJ) can, and do, own, and use, them....DAILY!!!

WAIT A SECOND!!!! If they can't use those bullets in an international war, but they can use them internally......why would they be replacing the bullets used in the recent Middle East wars, if they're not using those bullets out there? HEY!!! WAIT!!!! Why would they be replacing the standard 5.56mm round used by the soldiers, for a 9mm HANDGUN/SUBMACHINE GUN round with a shorter distance, that is an ILLEGAL TO USE INTERNATIONALLY round?

Answer....make your own minds up. I've got no answers. Just the facts, and a mentality for having fun.



I'm not being a knob by the way. Just playing devils advocate again.

I'm not for or against this truth/conspiracy. I just like seeing both sides of an argument represented equally with facts. Sorry if I'm coming across as a [insert expletive] to you BDG. After all, you did say "If we are not accurate in what we say, we are no where." to CryingFreeman. I'm just being accurate....and not referring to the 9mm round as if it's ONLY used in handguns. I'm simply being accurate by stating it's use in MUCH MORE than just handguns/pistol. I know you never said it was only used in them, but you're using suggestive language.

---

HAHA, just noticed my bad spelling.

Meant to say:

Copied and pasted, with a COUPLE of obvious modifications, from my friends response

and

Not the GC (instead of GV)

[cryingfreeman]

BDG, I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just stating it plainly: you're a hysterical nit-picker, mate, dishing out excuses so lame they look like they've been hit in the leg... with a hollow point. Not even well qualified military commentators find the US government's explanation for the hollow points credible. But you do. I'd love to know on what basis you place so much trust in governmental integrity? Or more to the point, why on earth are you so vigorously defending the US governments' implausible claims?

To everyone else, have you heard of Full Spectrum Dominance? It's Pentagon policy to wage psyops on all kinds of media, particularly those frequented by those of a non-sheeple worldview, with the objective of derailing threads on forums, promoting USG policy, etc, etc. I'm definitely not saying BDG is an agent of such. I'm only saying he's acting like one on this thread.