Defence

[Scythe13]

(23 March 2012, 17:30)Skean Dhude Wrote: If I saw a house that was well defended and had archery stuff around I wouldn't attack it directly. I would put it under surveillance for a while and plan an attack. You are more likely to enter a house that appears empty whilst out exploring.

Oddly enough, I'd actually disagree with that. But only considering the situation. If my kids were starving, and there were other houses around, I'm not going to stake out a house for a couple of days. I'd go elsewhere and get some food. Pop round the neighbours or something.

If it wasn't a case of starving to death, I would stake out and observe the house. But in all fairness, we're looking at a situation where people probably won't have enough time to stake out a house.

[HunterNurturer]

(23 March 2012, 15:58)bigpaul Wrote: as far as doors and windows are concerned, you could always put in a secondary METAL door behind the original-i think some drug gangs do this, you can beef up the window locks but they'll break the glass anyway, unlike burglars looters dont mind how much noise they make, i suppose you could fit metal bars but would that make your neighbours suspicious? there is always thorny bushes and the like but a serious invader would probably just ignore the scratches and thorns. the best thing you can have is a BOL- better still have 4, 1 at all points of the compass just incase your way is barred to your principal one. map and walk the route to your BOL so you can get there anytime day or night.

I once saw a "police camera action" style show that had cops trying to break down the door of some drug den. After a while of their battering ram failing to do the job (and screwing up their whole element of surprise raid), they realised that the owner had wedged a large 2x4 between the front door and the stairs behind it.

Even once they realised what was going on and they had to start targetting the edges of the door, it took a good few hits with the specialist device to force entry, and frankly they looked a bit silly when they got in and this super basic defense had kept them out for so long.

It seems to be something they encounter frequently too, they even had a nickname for it that I'm desperately trying to remember. Something like "dutch barricade"?

[Skean Dhude]

There is a protective device called a birmingham bar which offers protection from invaders.

[Tibbs735]

With regards to water, redundancy is your friend. You want multiple methods to produce safe water. Filtering and boiling is for short term, as is distilling. However these use a lot of energy.
Your best bet, along with being strict with water use and waste, would be a biosand filter. The link is a diagram:
http://practicalaction.org/image/bio-san...l-plan.jpg
]It totally nerfs anything living in the water, removing any chance of death by diarrhea.
It does this by forming an ecosystem on the top layer of sand that eats bacteria, worms, protozoa, viruses and organic material in the water.
The nasties also die due to lack of sunlight, air and food.
Many come to the end of their natural life cycle, unable to multiply.
They also stick to the slightly charged sand particles.
You could set it up with a large rain tub, a bucket with holes for a diffuser, and some flexible tubing to dispense water. By pouring water in to the filter, you are pushing water out of the bottom of the barrel and out of the tube due to pressure. The filter also reduces heavy metals, and other pollutants.
Crucially, it requires no spare filters and little maintenance. To clean it, you remove the diffuse bucket, pour in a jug of clean water and swirl it around in the sand. Let the sand settle, them remove said water. Repeat until the water is clean.
It might be a good idea to run some water through the clean ed filter for a few days without using it, to allow the bio filter to reform. It would be best to have several running at once, adding the filtered water to a reservoir tank. Some people like to add a proportional amount of bleach as insurance.
A video explaining it all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb0xf3mRbJM

---

Defence:
Threats have to detect you to get to you, its unlikely they will stumble across you by chance. By avoiding large roads, you avoid refugee lines of drift. Maintain discipline with smoke and cooking smells. Heating up some beef stew will bring them running, walking and crawling. Light discipline is crucial, as a lit house will stand out when the power grid is down and the nights are pitch black. For the first few months, whilst there are still large amounts of people around, you have to stay low, or you will be swamped. However as time goes on, only the self sufficient and the brutally skilled raiders will be alive, so security will remain crucial for a long time.
Decide your boundaries now, when will you shoot? When will you show mercy? Decide now to remove hesitation.
You want a large tribe of ideally 20-25 fighters. This allows for a continuous lookout and patrols. Have your immediate action drills rehearsed with your group now, so sudden threats can be dealt with E.g a convoy of 4x4's racing down the road towards your retreat. Imminent threats, like the golden horde refugees, can be dealt via ambushes at pre-determined choke points. Surprise them, search them, dispense charity if its safe to do so. You will probably have to shoot, as you will be on the map forever afterwards.
Don't let people know you have food. Hide it. Be stealthy.
Lay strands of wire taught at random, ankle to knee level heights and directions across the lawn, to stop people just running to your house. A fireproof roof would be a good prior investment against firebombs, if any petrol is left. Chain-link fence over windows would probably cause solid wine bottles to bounce off and land on the ground.
Most people will probably freak-out and piss themselves in the face of a solid defense. Up until then,they will have been preying on the weak.
Take no chances with shooting. Its the 1% alive guys that you turn your back to that kill you. Unless you sever the spine or destroy their brain, they will be screaming on the ground for few minutes.
Body Disposal
Feed bodies to pigs. There will most likely be plenty of wild ones escaping from factory farms.
Alternatively, just bury them. If you want to be really freaky, a live yogurt enema will speed u decay greatly.
Hope that helps!

[Skvez]

I think huge *organised* groups of looters are unlikely. (You might be unfortunate enough to encounter a former army Platoon but I think it's improbable)

Scavengers tend to follow each other about and may appear as a large mob but they will have little or no leadership or structure.

The better you're armed the more likely you are to be able to dissuade them from entering your home to search it. However if they are convinced you have what they need (food if they're starving) then you're in trouble.

If you have to flee from a scenario like this the mob will probably be more interested in what you've left behind than in following you but just in case grab a can of food (in addition to your BOB) and run with it in your hand. If you're being followed after a short distance drop the can, there is a good chance that the first person following you will stop for the can and a good chance that the second person following you will stop when they get to the first person to see if they can take the can or share the can.
Additional followers (if any) will spend more time looking for things you may drop and less time concentrating on the terrain so you have a better chance to get clear.

[Paul]

Being part of a drifting mass is sometimes a good idea.
Safety in numbers and almost automatic admission to camps and food stations.
Just as long as you look as pathetic as the next guy.
Refugee columns I've seen all walk tired, dirty, and looking at their feet.

If you are armed, look fit, or well equipped, it draws attention.
Especially at food stations or camp entrances.

As for food?
Large camp hygeine really sucks as does communial eating, washing, and drinking water.
You should always split away from the masses to feed, sleep, toilet and wash.
Remember, refugee camps aren't full of peace loving souls and are usually violent.
Add a bit of food shortage and feeding stations aren't for the weak either.

Tibbs735. You said "You want a large tribe of ideally 20-25 fighters."
Street thugs, mercs, or just untrained civiilians?

If you're in charge of street thugs you've got to make it worth their while to follow your orders. The second you don't reward them for their efforts or even try to punish one, you'll have drawn an imaginary target on your back. Their loyalty will be for as long as the reward is good, the alcohol and woman plentiful.

If everything collapses, even trained the military might go their own way.
They will probably retain their group leadership though.
They definitely won't respect non military leadership lording over them.
As for their loyalty to you? Only for them they know and those they respect.
To keep them on you'll have to pay them in Merc reward i.e. best food, drink, and of course women.

Untrained civilians in a large group toting guns?
Without training or knowledgable strong leadership, they'll be close to the bottom of the food chain.
The bigger the group the more chance of social or status divisions and the inevitable ruling class.
If the world fell apart because of "management", you'll soon be tarred with that title and the possible contempt and consequences that entails.

IMHO, the smaller the group the better.
Mixed is best. Both sexes can stand guard and some of the best snipers I've known are women.
A balanced mixed tight group will usually 'gel' especially if there are a few kids.
Most small units readily adopt a loyalty to each other and the group.

[bigpaul]

the only group i'm going to want to be part of would be family or friends i have known for a LONG time(like my mates i have known for 30+ years), people i know i can trust. me be part of a group with complete strangers? no way Jose..i would be too scared to sleep at night in case someone decided to knife me...i'd rather go lone wolf.

[Tibbs735]

(28 July 2012, 00:08)Paul Wrote: Being part of a drifting mass is sometimes a good idea.
Safety in numbers and almost automatic admission to camps and food stations.
Just as long as you look as pathetic as the next guy.
Refugee columns I've seen all walk tired, dirty, and looking at their feet.

If you are armed, look fit, or well equipped, it draws attention.
Especially at food stations or camp entrances.

As for food?
Large camp hygeine really sucks as does communial eating, washing, and drinking water.
You should always split away from the masses to feed, sleep, toilet and wash.
Remember, refugee camps aren't full of peace loving souls and are usually violent.
Add a bit of food shortage and feeding stations aren't for the weak either.

Tibbs735. You said "You want a large tribe of ideally 20-25 fighters."
Street thugs, mercs, or just untrained civiilians?

If you're in charge of street thugs you've got to make it worth their while to follow your orders. The second you don't reward them for their efforts or even try to punish one, you'll have drawn an imaginary target on your back. Their loyalty will be for as long as the reward is good, the alcohol and woman plentiful.

If everything collapses, even trained the military might go their own way.
They will probably retain their group leadership though.
They definitely won't respect non military leadership lording over them.
As for their loyalty to you? Only for them they know and those they respect.
To keep them on you'll have to pay them in Merc reward i.e. best food, drink, and of course women.

Untrained civilians in a large group toting guns?
Without training or knowledgable strong leadership, they'll be close to the bottom of the food chain.
The bigger the group the more chance of social or status divisions and the inevitable ruling class.
If the world fell apart because of "management", you'll soon be tarred with that title and the possible contempt and consequences that entails.

IMHO, the smaller the group the better.
Mixed is best. Both sexes can stand guard and some of the best snipers I've known are women.
A balanced mixed tight group will usually 'gel' especially if there are a few kids.
Most small units readily adopt a loyalty to each other and the group.

When I said 25 fighters, I meant people you have known before, as part of a group formed before SHTF, or as close as you can get. By having 25 adults you can also maintain sentries 24 hours a day without getting exhausted as well as farming effectively. This allows for specialization with the group. As well as everyone being trained on fighting, contact drills, survival skills, first aid etc, you could also have a medically trained person, or a skilled blacksmith etc who can pass on those skills

[bigpaul]

(28 July 2012, 13:59)Tibbs735 Wrote:

(28 July 2012, 00:08)Paul Wrote: Being part of a drifting mass is sometimes a good idea.
Safety in numbers and almost automatic admission to camps and food stations.
Just as long as you look as pathetic as the next guy.
Refugee columns I've seen all walk tired, dirty, and looking at their feet.

If you are armed, look fit, or well equipped, it draws attention.
Especially at food stations or camp entrances.

As for food?
Large camp hygeine really sucks as does communial eating, washing, and drinking water.
You should always split away from the masses to feed, sleep, toilet and wash.
Remember, refugee camps aren't full of peace loving souls and are usually violent.
Add a bit of food shortage and feeding stations aren't for the weak either.

Tibbs735. You said "You want a large tribe of ideally 20-25 fighters."
Street thugs, mercs, or just untrained civiilians?

If you're in charge of street thugs you've got to make it worth their while to follow your orders. The second you don't reward them for their efforts or even try to punish one, you'll have drawn an imaginary target on your back. Their loyalty will be for as long as the reward is good, the alcohol and woman plentiful.

If everything collapses, even trained the military might go their own way.
They will probably retain their group leadership though.
They definitely won't respect non military leadership lording over them.
As for their loyalty to you? Only for them they know and those they respect.
To keep them on you'll have to pay them in Merc reward i.e. best food, drink, and of course women.

Untrained civilians in a large group toting guns?
Without training or knowledgable strong leadership, they'll be close to the bottom of the food chain.
The bigger the group the more chance of social or status divisions and the inevitable ruling class.
If the world fell apart because of "management", you'll soon be tarred with that title and the possible contempt and consequences that entails.

IMHO, the smaller the group the better.
Mixed is best. Both sexes can stand guard and some of the best snipers I've known are women.
A balanced mixed tight group will usually 'gel' especially if there are a few kids.
Most small units readily adopt a loyalty to each other and the group.

When I said 25 fighters, I meant people you have known before, as part of a group formed before SHTF, or as close as you can get. By having 25 adults you can also maintain sentries 24 hours a day without getting exhausted as well as farming effectively. This allows for specialization with the group. As well as everyone being trained on fighting, contact drills, survival skills, first aid etc, you could also have a medically trained person, or a skilled blacksmith etc who can pass on those skills

great idea Tibbs, unfortunately it'll never work, i dont know 25 people let alone 25 i could trust, i think its more like 5 not 25, for that large a group you are going to need a large "retreat" to house them all, somewhere not only with the accomodation, kitchens, Toilets for 25 people? also with the land for animals and growing and still be defendable and hidden away from the hordes??

[Skvez]

I'm going to go "lone wolf".
But even if I knew 25 people that I trusted it's unlikley that they would all get along with each other.
I think you'd be safer from external threats in a group that size but I think internal issues are almost inevitable.
Internal issues including:
Someone not pulling their weight
Someone stealing food (or worse)
Someone can't keep OPSEC
Someone "wasting" irreplaceable resources faster than you think is appropriate
Someone cracking up under the strain

You're very fortunate if you have a group of 25 that can keep it together.