Law post SHTF

[Tartar Horde]

It is clear that from our earliest written records (Hammurabi) etc, and studies of non literate tribes, that a form of Law has always been associated with Humans. I am interested to discern, as a group if there are common threads regarding Law we hold to be universal. With this in mind my scenario is quite simple.
We on this site are THE TRIBE who exist in a post SHTF world, and for better or worse we have to live together. WE need a unified code of laws that we can all agree on that enables us to achieve this.
I will start by asking

1 Do we all hold the same views on theft? as in some societies theft was a legitimate occupation.

2 How do we define murder?

[Highlander]

Every law has to start with a group of people who everyone agrees are the `leaders` of the group,... `elected leaders`.

These people, these wise people should be able to make laws for the rest of us,..`elected laws`

In a survival situation, the important thing is the survival of the group,.. so if something is needed and cant be obtained any other way,... I would suggest we steal it

If in a survival situation if we have to/need to, kill to survive, then that is not deemed to be murder

Neither of these two crimes must ever be committed within the group, a killing within the group would be murder,.. stealing from each other would be theft

[Mortblanc]

Killing to survive is called WAR. In establishing the right to kill to survive you are condoning the continuation of war as a legetimate occupation.

There are several constants and one might look to an obsolete guide to ethics for those constants, even if the religion is forign to you. Of the Ten Commandments there are 4 that serve as guides for any culture;

Do not murder people (this does not exclude the basic human right to self defense)
Do not mess with another persons' husband or wife
Do not steal
Do not lie, espicaly about another person

In studying history I have found those aspects as being universal. I have also found that if a culture does not accept those universals then they will eventually be imposed on the culture by some outside scource. That outside source (organized government) will normally exempt themselves from the rules.

[bigpaul]

why is it that as soon as we've got rid of that slavery called "civilisation" someone wants to start it all again?? i dont want some ARSE who thinks he has a god given "right" to rule over me making "laws" to suit himself...NO THANKS!....if civilisation goes to hell in a handcart i want no place is resurrecting it all over again.

[Tartar Horde]

Civilisation is merely living in cities, and most all of our modern laws are focused on this. It is clear though that many hunter gatherer societies also had a well defined set of laws that enabled them to contact other peoples with a degree of mutual understanding. I'm not for one moment trying to force laws etc on anyone. Big Paul your point of view is valid in as much as that is the way you see it, but are you saying your prefered method of life after an event would be one where absolutely no concept of law is adhered to? where people could kill, rob and rape with impunity, it's not about someone's God given right to tell you what to do, it's about humans trying to exist together with some sort of mechanism to do this.
Could we actually live without a system of redress?

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(2 February 2013, 18:44)Mortblanc Wrote: Killing to survive is called WAR. In establishing the right to kill to survive you are condoning the continuation of war as a legetimate occupation.

There are several constants and one might look to an obsolete guide to ethics for those constants, even if the religion is forign to you. Of the Ten Commandments there are 4 that serve as guides for any culture;

Do not murder people (this does not exclude the basic human right to self defense)
Do not mess with another persons' husband or wife
Do not steal
Do not lie, espicaly about another person

In studying history I have found those aspects as being universal. I have also found that if a culture does not accept those universals then they will eventually be imposed on the culture by some outside scource. That outside source (organized government) will normally exempt themselves from the rules.

Those points above I agree are universal to societies, but it is also apparant that those "laws" are not universally applied to peoples outside of your tribal group. for example, it would be wrong to steal from someone in your group, would it be wrong to steal from someone outside your group? as most tribal systems see outsiders as "outside" their laws and so the normal constraints of tribal life do not apply to anyone who is not of the tribe.
The purest form of law is one of consent, and does not allow any one person or persons to Lord it over us, as is the situation today. This is of course pertaining to group living. If on the other hand you are taking the Lone Wolf approach as perhaps Big Paul is? by what rules would you expect people to abide by when contacting/trading with you? and would you expect them to hold the "universal" laws as a given?

[bigpaul]

i'm just saying i dont need someone to make up the/their rules and tell me how to run my life especially after TSHTF.they will always do it for THEIR benefit NOT mine. in a post SHTF world i want to be left alone .i want no part of THEIR "society".

[Tartar Horde]

(3 February 2013, 13:54)bigpaul Wrote: i'm just saying i dont need someone to make up the/their rules and tell me how to run my life especially after TSHTF.they will always do it for THEIR benefit NOT mine. in a post SHTF world i want to be left alone .i want no part of THEIR "society".

I understand your point perfectly as a lone wolf wanting to be left alone and everyone respects you for it. eventually you will have to deal/interact with people though, what universal laws would you apply and expect them to observe?

[bigpaul]

(3 February 2013, 14:09)Tartar Horde Wrote: I understand your point perfectly as a lone wolf wanting to be left alone and everyone respects you for it. eventually you will have to deal/interact with people though, what universal laws would you apply and expect them to observe?

why do you assume"you will eventually have to interact with others", in a post collapse event there may be nobody or very few left in my area , in any case whether i chose to "interact" with them will be my choice-i may choose not too!

[Highlander]

Much of what we say on here is thought of as the here and now,... but what happens after TSHTF and we get older, there may come a time when we are not big and strong, and will need to rely on others, this is where a group surviving together is really needed,... a group of people could never live together is a close group without some sort of law and a leader to enforce it

If someone wanted to go it alone, thinking that they can manage without other people, then fine, I can well underatand that, in may ways that would be the safest way to live...but at some point along the way they will get old, hurt, or ill,... once a strong person gets either of these, the strength will soon leave him,...and life expectency is greatly reduced.

I dont belong to a group, I am sure that most of us dont, and that we plan on going it alone,... but I wish in many ways that I did belong to a group,... and if the SHTF I will be trying,..[ oh so carfully.. ] to meet at least one other couple

[bigpaul]

you might think that, but most groups will shun old people cos they think that they(the old person) cannot "pull their weight"...its called human nature.

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dont bother trying to "rely" on other people-they will only let you down. i have had a lifetimes experience of this-believe me i know.

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if your survival plans will only work if you involve others(as in NOT immediate family but people outside your family circle) expect to FAIL- outsiders are NOT to be relied upon.