what to carry

[Luci_ferson]

buy a propper ammo tin too.
damp ammo isnt just not of much use, it can be dangerous to self too.

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shame your allotment is nowhere near me, it be good to have a neighbour with a gun lol

[Talon]

Well i'd thought of the greased rag's for protecting the gun,i hadn't given any thought to the ammunition though.Good point Luci

[Timelord]

CROSSBOW - one preloaded shot in a fight - likelihood in a PSHTF scenario is that you may well be facing more than one aggressor. V.quiet but not silent.
Heavy/bulky.
For hunting, only really useful for large game - likelihood in PSHTF = small.
Ammo - Fire & forget. Correct construction needed for accuracy. Stopping power - Medium (Is this adequate???) - Forget cheap shop bought target bolts (arrows for 2handed xbows). Most crossbows are built today to fire target arrows - not heavy bolts as in history - Result - for hunting larger game with the end result usually being bleeding out over time - Not ideal for drug or adrenaline fuelled crazies!!
Even original heavy bolt firers as in medieval war crossbows did not have the same shock & stopping power as a lead bullet at considerably more velocity!
Armour penetration ability is unlikely to be required. Likelihood of penetration on unarmoured assailants is that the bolt will pass straight through. If not hitting any immediately vital organs on its trajectory, then trouble could be fast approaching.
Strings can fray or stretch in damp weather. Ice cold conditions can also affect the strings elasticity. Fancy cam wheels and pivots on some types are exposed to damage and the environment.
Rate of Fire - Slow.
Maintenance - Medium to High.
Intimidation - 1on1 - High / Multiple - Medium & reducing the larger the multiple.

20GAUGE - Excellent all round choice.
Stopping power on large aggressors - reasonable.
Weight/Encumbrance - better than crossbow or 12Gauge.
Ammo - lighter and easier to carry or more can be carried. Scarce to the point of negligible chance of coming across any PSHTF.
Reloading is cheaper & more efficient than the 12gauge but new shop bought shells are considerably dearer than 12gauge due to the niche market of the 20g.
Hunting - Good choice if "Hunting" is your choice - don't forget Urban areas will likely preclude much of this activity in the time after any disaster. Also the noise report will give your general position away in any environment.
Cut down - makes an excellent shot or slug pistol. (If not a pump or semi auto - otherwise it will be more of a carbine and maybe not worth the loss of accuracy over its marginally shorter length. - Great at this shorter length for indoor environments though!
Maintenance - Medium. (see 12gauge)
Rate of Fire - High - but may be limited by capacity before reloads. If single or double barrelled in a defensive situation, then as a long gun it is reasonably quick to reload if there is some distance & preferably cover to your adversary. If at close quarters, then it is better used for the initial shots and then reverting to another weapon or us the shotgun as a club.(which does risk damage to it, especially the black nylon stocked affairs or lighter guns like the 20 gauge or .410)
For dedicated close quarter work, as in buildings or any close environment, then the cut down pistol version, versed with a suitable load - is v.handy..
Intimidation - High. (Average rabid Joe will not know the difference of shotgun calibres & the myth of the 12gauge room clearance ability will be uppermost in his mental reasoning)

12GAUGE - The Daddy of fight stoppers!
Unbeatable for quickly bringing to satisfactory conclusion a threat of personal violence to oneself - either as a deterrent or as an enforcer.
Weight/Encumbrance - Worse than the 20Gauge but marginally better than a reasonably powered crossbow.
Ammo - heavier & bulkier than the 20Gauge -(More firepower). No worse than crossbow bolts. Likelihood of sourcing ammo PSHTF considerably greater than any other calibre of any firearm. Farms are a favourite. Still - It will not be found easily and will be jealously guarded! Ammo more susceptible to damp conditions than standard pistol & rifle ammo. Needs to be taken into consideration for storage & active use environments.. Brass shell cases can be bought or adapted from other calibres and used for reloads. these are much better at keeping the damp out.
Reloading - Easy to achieve at a low cost if a hand reloader of the "LEE" type or similar is purchased. Can even make up a black powder substitute under expedient conditions and scavenged lead is easily remodelled into suitable loads. Other more exotic loads can be configured for specific scenarios or ones own taste of personal entertainment.. Adaptabilty to change ammo types as the need arises. (These reloading points also apply to the 20gauge)
Hunting - Too severe in reality. Will do the job but will also make a real mess of the target and in so doing, dump a lot of lead into it which ruins the edibility somewhat. Smaller game will be fairly well mashed. The noise report will be significant..
If cut down, especially if a side by side or over & under type, then the weight can be significantly be reduced.
Maintenance - Medium. Needs to be kept dry or dried ASAP after rain. Then needs re-oiling.. Needs component parts cleaning now & again. Stainless steel versions highly recommended - but expensive. Historically normal steel versions were adequate around the world over the last few hundred years. Just needs correct care & attention.
Rate of Fire - High but limited - as per the 20 Gauge.
Intimidation - V.High
A cut down 12gauge to the size of a bulky pistol and holstered is the ultimate fight stopper at close quarters. A longer barrelled version extends that range a bit and accuracy at distance is improved. A short one holstered as such, combined with a longer one would be ideal for defensive actions and would have commonality of ammo and if the same make would also have commonality of parts.

CATAPULTS - V.underrated as an all round & low tech weapon.
Stopping Power - Not great. Accuracy needed for effectiveness - luckily this can usually be acquired with practice. Under duress accuracy may be compromised! Stopping power for hunting - good on small to medium game. Slower rate of fire than a firearm but should be faster than a bow.
Ammo - If a bit of modern thinking is applied and lead balls are fired instead of underperforming steel types of popular catapult culture, then the ballistic properties are significantly improved - to the point of lethal or damaging impact to bipedal transgressors. If these lead balls now take on an elongated shape as per the 200 year old clay or lead moulded examples or the simple thumb impression in sand formed ones, then the ballistic coefficient is considerably enhanced again and so is the impact delivery characteristics.
Weight/Encumbrance - Minimal
Spare good quality elastics need to be kept or lengths of car or bike innertube as an alternative.
Reloading - see ammo. Source roofing lead which is abundant in the UK. Alternative sources are plumbing & drain pipework on old houses of Victorian or Georgian or earlier vintage. Another alternative used historically is clay dried by a fire in a suitable pellet shape. Modern larger nuts or any suitable weighty bit of modern scrap could be used, inc car wheel nuts and lead weights - the list goes on!
Hunting - Excellent and ideal for quick opportunistic shots.
Noise - Almost silent - not quite, similar but less than a crossbow.
Maintenance - Extreme Low or make a new one easily.. rubber (latex) bands do stretch/wear out so replacements will be needed.
Good in outdoors or urban or indoor environments. Short range, maybe to 10 metres with accuracy.
Intimidation - Low

SHORTBOW - Good weapon/hunting tool within its limits.
Stopping Power - Medium. May or may not stop an adversary... Depends on hit location & depth of penetration through materials. If "bleed out" scenario would not class as stopping power in a fight!
Accuracy needed - Takes a lot of practice to master and then repeat practice to keep the skill level up. The idea of archery in history being effective for war and hunting only applies in reality today if you have an adequately trained skill level. Those historical archers were training and hunting with bows from being young boys to adulthood and only some of them were good or hand picked for war! While you may not need that amount of dedication of skill level today in a PSHTF scenario, the bow still requires a reasonable level of competence to get the results and don't forget you may be under pressure or malnourished at the time. If you fancy putting the time in then the bow is a useful tool.
Ammo - Again modern shop bought arrows are not the same as historical war arrows but are the lighter hunting version. Still effective but not the same impact & damage as a heavier "war arrow" of historical pedigree. Arrows can be made personally but some knowledge and skill level is needed to achieve this. Highly recommend - acquiring these skills! Expedient arrows or bows are not as accurate.
Also materials need to be gathered - many expedient materials can be used but understanding of the construction materials themselves, v.basic flight dynamics and impact forces throughout the arrow itself need to be taken into account for successful arrows to be constructed. Arrows are easy to lose or be damaged. Arrows lost can be indicators to outside forces of your methods. (as can be dropped shell cases - but these are easier to see and pick up)
Weight/Encumbrance - Medium (light weight weapon, medium encumbrance due to bow + arrows to be carried)
Maintenance - Medium. Strings the same as for the Crossbow. Bows are easy to damage "in the field" - especially lighter weight modern target bows as is the norm today. Spare strings needed & knowledge of string construction & alternative materials desirable! Bows do not perform well in damp weather. Bows & strings need to be protected from damp weather if possible.
Hunting - Good for medium to larger game. Accuracy needed and likelihood the target will bleed out which entails tracking the wounded quarry until it collapses due to blood loss. Accurate shots may negate this but again the skill level must be adequate. Small game will need exceedingly good accuracy and is not ideal to take with a bow. Other methods like trapping or netting or different projectile throwers would be better suited.
Noise - V.v. Quiet .(Not silent)
Rate of Fire - Medium
Intimidation - Medium. Might not put of a group or anyone armed with firearms.
Urban environment - Medium outdoors - Very Low indoors. Very disadvantaged at close quarters.

LONGBOW - Mostly the same as the Shortbow, except :-
Encumbrance - High due to length of bow & longer arrows. Weighs slightly more as well.
Intimidation - Medium to High.
Urban Environment - Low outdoors. Abysmal indoors
Stopping Power - Medium - but has the same arrow related issues discussed above.

ARROW FIRING CATAPULT - LOL
What is the point?? Normal catapult projectiles are far more efficient for this design of launcher and its intended recipients. The arrows are crappy half sized target varieties. The design dymanics are poor. WHY?? Rather more of a gimmick than a useful bit of kit. WHY, why, why. Next we'll be back to arrow firing guns like in the early 14th century in Europe. LOL...

ATLATL - Superb survival weapon. These were the weapon our ancient ancestors used to clear the majority of large and v.dangerous game from the continents before the bow was even conceived.
Noise - Extremely quiet.
Stopping Power - Good - Fires small javelins with considerable impact force. Not always a lethal impact but the size of projectile imparts a large energy dump which would stop an aggressor from advancing.
Weight/Encumbrance - Minimal - can be carried around & through vegetation, cocked & then launched within seconds.
Ammo- Small javelins which are effectively oversized and longer arrows that can be made from thin straight growing saplings or coppiced trees or any other suitable straight material to be found in our modern environment. They can be fitted with tail flights of plastic or card or any other ridged or semi ridged material. Feathers are not necessary. In fact the tail flights can be left off which results in a drop of accuracy & range but still usable projectile. This would be a "mass stabilized projectile" instead of a fin stabilized projectile. This is useful to know if working under difficult expedient circumstances!
Maintenance - Minimal. Easy enough to construct oneself with rudimentary knowledge of the device.
Hunting - ok for large game or biped aggressors. No good for small game. Should be useful for medium game with practice.
Rate of Fire - Slow
Range - 20 to 30 metres for accuracy.
Urban environment - Ok outdoors. V.Poor indoors. No good close quarters.
Intimidation - Poor until after the first impact. Not for use individually against multiple targets unless secondary weapons also carried ready.

Other Hunting or Self defence weapons are also reviewable in a prepper sense. Military ethos is not directly equitable to prepper requirements. Knowledge of a small selection of weapons is not conducive to cross sectional comparability. A projectile weapon is only as useful as its ammunition.
1 Knowledge, 2 Ammunition, 3 Weapon, 4 Skill.
(Think) (Effect) (Delivery) (Ability)

Regards, TL

[I-K-E]

great info TL many thanks

[Skean Dhude]

TL,

After our weekend I keep telling everyone about the Atlalt. Particularly the distance it can be thrown.

[bigpaul]

very negative TL, too negative, projectile weapons have been used for centuries by native peoples to good effect, just ask the American Cavalry.

[Tartar Horde]

One primary weapon seems an easy decision at first doesn't it, but imagine the stress having to decide in a crisis which to take!!
If I had firearms I would choose a 12g for all of the above sound reasons, I don't so it's fantasy to even try.
My primary weapons would be Bows, Crossbows and a choice of various historic swords for close encounters. I would leave the swords etc behind or cache them. I would not take the crossbow even though it has the edge on a bow for accuracy, it does not have speed of use AT ALL. I would take my Avar (mongol style) bow and twelve arrows made up, and a further twelve shafts with fletchings and nocks to make when I need them. There is nothing I can't kill with this bow from Rat to Beef cattle, small pointable fast and very quiet shooting heavy bodkin points and shafts. But the limitations of carrying a bow are very real and dangerous in a world gone tits up. I would stay well clear of anyone even looking like they had a firearm because you would lose.
Now here's a hypothetical scenario to consider.
You are out after TSHTF looking for a bunny or pigeon to bag using your 12g and the appropriate ammo and you encounter an Archer at 60yds who fears who?

[I-K-E]

(18 April 2013, 16:33)Tartar Horde Wrote: One primary weapon seems an easy decision at first doesn't it, but imagine the stress having to decide in a crisis which to take!!
If I had firearms I would choose a 12g for all of the above sound reasons, I don't so it's fantasy to even try.
My primary weapons would be Bows, Crossbows and a choice of various historic swords for close encounters. I would leave the swords etc behind or cache them. I would not take the crossbow even though it has the edge on a bow for accuracy, it does not have speed of use AT ALL. I would take my Avar (mongol style) bow and twelve arrows made up, and a further twelve shafts with fletchings and nocks to make when I need them. There is nothing I can't kill with this bow from Rat to Beef cattle, small pointable fast and very quiet shooting heavy bodkin points and shafts. But the limitations of carrying a bow are very real and dangerous in a world gone tits up. I would stay well clear of anyone even looking like they had a firearm because you would lose.
Now here's a hypothetical scenario to consider.
You are out after TSHTF looking for a bunny or pigeon to bag using your 12g and the appropriate ammo and you encounter an Archer at 60yds who fears who?

personally I'd try talking to the archer and lowering the gun as I'd be out after a bunny or pigeon not a fight and if he made any move to notch and arrow I'd be looking of the nearest cover or running in the opposite direction

whilst trying to load some more appropriate ammo just case it needed it

saying that I've not got a SGC or FAC so it's moot point at the moment

[Tartar Horde]

Good answer

Me being the suspicious sod I am would think he might be loaded with breneke slugs and so would make a not too custardly looking retreat lol

[I-K-E]

I'm working on the principle of not looking for a fight ..... if I did I'm guessing I wouldn't last to long

even firing then getting out of the way means you got a new enemy and if the SHTF we'll all be to busy trying to survive and you want to minimise any unnecessary conflict

hell you may even find someone to help out and possible a new friend after a while