Commuity - What does it take?

[Scythe13]

I don't want to sound like a capitalist pig, even though that's what I am, but 1 person should be in control of the land. I don't think it's smart to provide everyone with land and let everyone have a say on what get's planted. It's ridiculous, if you think about it. The person who, I would want to have total control over the planting would be the farmers and plant experts. I wouldn't want a mechanic having a say in what gets planted, or have a general labourer idiot have an equal say in what get's planted. That's insane. What if you applied the same to medicine? Would everyone get a say on how surgery was performed, or on what medication treats what illness? Of course not. So when it comes to farming and food, why does everyone get a fair say then too? Would it not be better to leave it to the specialists? We leave mechanics to fix vehicles, doctors to treat patients, and everyone in the community for growing plants?!?!?! HU? That doesn't work at all.

Does a doctor or mechanic know what plants can grow on boggy soil? What about crop rotation? How about seasonal planting, plant nutrition, fertiliser, when to harvest, and the alike?

The same with allotments. You are basically saying, unless you know what you're doing, you're going to starve. So the community breaks down, people lie, cheat, steal, and kill, just to eat, and we're back to square one.

The forager will ignore their allotment, the labourer will use guess work, the doctor won't have time for it, and the mechanic will use it for oil disposal (joke). So now he labourer, doctor, and mechanic are all hungry and kick the crap out of everyone else with food.

This socialist system isn't working too well. A municipal body, to oversee the individual processes makes sense. Kind of Marxist I guess.

But the fact of the matter is, all people may 'be equal', but all people do not have equal subject knowledge or experience, and so should not get an equal say on everything.

[bigpaul]

that makes sense, I don't know about 1 person OWNING the land, post SHTF I don't see many people actually owning land, more a case of hanging onto a piece of land that they can control, as for what to grow that will pretty much be dictated by what is "in season" as we wont have access to food from abroad being shipped in by the container load, so it'll be what can be grown in your own particular area in the soil type relative to your area.

[Skean Dhude]

Well, I won't be joining in any such community. I'll be in control of my own destiny and be the crazy old guy on the outskirts who everyone keeps clear of because he eats kids.

[Highlander]

mmmm, not so sure,....ok, so the experts are the ones who will be in charge of the planting, but everyone would ,..or should be allowed to decide what is to be planted, you dont have to be an expert to know what you like to eat

...and also an expert grower may not know the entire benefits of different plants, it would be a good policy to have others who might know the medical qualities of plants for instance

So, I am not so sure,..... there is still an argument for a community control of the planting land

[Steve]

(17 October 2013, 21:24)Highlander Wrote: Scottish crofter did so for hundreds of years before the clearances, they farmed on a lot less, a `Rig` was an area of about 75 meters by something like 150-200 meters

Seventy five by two hundred metres is three acres though.

[Scythe13]

(18 October 2013, 22:55)Highlander Wrote: mmmm, not so sure,....ok, so the experts are the ones who will be in charge of the planting, but everyone would ,..or should be allowed to decide what is to be planted, you dont have to be an expert to know what you like to eat

...and also an expert grower may not know the entire benefits of different plants, it would be a good policy to have others who might know the medical qualities of plants for instance

So, I am not so sure,..... there is still an argument for a community control of the planting land

Can you tell me, without using google, what plants grow best with peanut's? What about the highest yielding crop to feed a family? What plant has the greatest nutrient density? Will it grow on the fields outside your house in that climate? Can you tell me which plants you cannot put together because they use the same nutrients and thus ruin the quality of the soil?

I'm not getting at you specifically HL, but I'm just trying to show something that people need to see. For survival, having an opinion is great, but having knowledge is much more important.

As BP says, having land to plant is available everywhere. If you want to plant something, by all means, go for it. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing that. That's what gardens are for. But the main staple crops to feed the people, these should be decided and controlled by those skilled in that specific set. Not all doctors know herbs and the alike. All people have differing ideas about different things, and if you want to just eat broccoli, that's your prerogative, but if this soil doesn't harbour anything good for broccoli, then you've just killed 3 people. If you over water the courgettes, you've killed another person. The thing is, not all conditions are right for all plants, and we all know that. The reason we have such a plethora of food available is because of the capitalist society that gathers food from far and wide. UK crops will be very different, and I don't care how much you like bananas, planting them around the UK won't ever result in a 'bumper harvest' shall we say. Let those that know how to grow plants, do what they do best. Certain people, e.g. doctor for nutritional knowledge, should have an input, but not everyone.

I say people should not be left to plant their own food because my wife has the ability to drown a water lily and dehydrate a cactus (if anyone wants to try and make me look stupid by saying you should water a cactus about once every 2 weeks, then this sentence just made you look silly too....you little know-it-all )

[Steve]

(18 October 2013, 08:52)bigpaul Wrote: allotments are smaller than that and you'd be surprised what you can grow on one.you only need the acreage if your keeping large animals, plants can be grown in relatively small areas. research "square foot gardening" and "vertical gardening".

I have looked into this, there's a big difference between growing allotment veg to go with your supermarket meat, cereal and dairy products and growing all your calories.

[bigpaul]

a full sized allotment is a fairly big area, you'd be surprised what you can grow on it, some allow chickens and bees, some do not.

---

(18 October 2013, 22:42)Skean Dhude Wrote: Well, I won't be joining in any such community. I'll be in control of my own destiny and be the crazy old guy on the outskirts who everyone keeps clear of because he eats kids.

Funny SD, I thought you were describing ME!!

[Spuzzana]

Quote: Skean Dhude
Would it be possible without modern, powered, farming techniques to feed 5 people on half and acre and keep them fit and healthy?

I could see it if we used aquaponics, vertical gardening etc. but I guessed by the comments you are not talking about using either of those.

Yes I believe that it is possible and can be done in a societal grid down situation. Not suggesting that you will be able to enjoy all the foodstuffs currently enjoyed within one’s diet. The majority of the food will be produced by indigenous fruit trees and perennials that will grow within your region. Across the UK this will differ the further north you go. In fact the further north you are living you may need to adjust the area allocated to growing for each family to a larger area. However, if you are fortunate to live within a micro-climate that is warmer by as little as 2-3C average annually, you may be able to grow a larger and more exotic range of produce in a smaller area.

The key is do not to use mono-culture type planting and plant all your food plants in the traditional soldierly lines and drills. This is the killer to being able to produce a wide range of foods within a given area. You have to use the plants and their attractiveness to friendly predator bugs to kill the bugs that will eat your produce. So you need plants that have a natural protective symbiotic relationship with one another. E.g. (although not perennials using this as an example) Carrots and onions plant them together and you will not suffer with carrot or onion fly. Following year plant them in a different area to avoid any eggs/larvae that have been laid the previous year.

For example, if you have a walnut tree growing in your area allocated to food you will have to research all the plants that will grow within the drip/root system area of the walnut tree. Walnuts will be a substantial protein addition to your diet. However, you will not be able to grow any plants under the tree that do not enjoy the toxins a walnut tree puts out because walnuts do not tolerate the competition for resources. So what can you grow under a walnut tree? I will leave you to do the research. However, the clue is Nightshade family.

Vertical Gardening. This technique does use vertical gardening. Rather than the industrial age 2 dimensional farming. You now use the third dimension of height to increase the yield of any given area. Result is that you will be capable of producing up to 5 times ….YES that is right 5 TIMES as much food in the same area.

Quote: Highlander
(17 October 2013 12:35)Skean Dhude Wrote:
Would it be possible without modern, powered, farming techniques to feed 5 people on half and acre and keep them fit and healthy?

I could see it if we used aquaponics, vertical gardening etc. but I guessed by the comments you are not talking about using either of those.

Scottish crofter did so for hundreds of years before the clearances, they farmed on a lot less, a `Rig` was an area of about 75 meters by something like 150-200 meters and each crofter and his family were expected to make a living from that land, swapping `Rigs` between crofter every year so that the best and the worst land were not always held by the same families

This area represents about 3 acres rather than the half acre I suggested in my original post. However, as noted in my reply to SD (above) the further north you are, you may need to consider putting aside a larger food production area (unless you are in a warmer micro-climate).

The essential key is being able to obtain food from 3 rather than the 2 dimensional farming/gardening techniques currently in favour. Also see BP’s comments below.

Quote: bigpaul
allotments are smaller than that and you'd be surprised what you can grow on one.you only need the acreage if your keeping large animals, plants can be grown in relatively small areas. research "square foot gardening" and "vertical gardening".

Yes the techniques suggested use the vertical as well as the horizontal planes. Thanks BP.

Quote: PreparednessUK
You should also checkout Jeff Lawson and his permaculture info.

Yes a good resource. However, you do need to take permaculture to the next stage and use the friendly bug attractiveness to symbiotic relationships to ward of the bugs that will destroy your hard work. You also have to at all costs avoid planting in mono-cultural lines that are currently prevalent, otherwise the bad bugs will get to your plants and eat them before the friendly predator bugs have time to ward them off. Alternatively, you spend hours daily going around and squishing bugs and their eggs so they don't eat your food because you like lines of carrots, onions, lettuce, beans and courgettes.

Quote: bigpaul

also "permaculture" magazine. handy tips and ideas.

Yes another good resource.

Quote: Scythe13
I don't want to sound like a capitalist pig, even though that's what I am, but 1 person should be in control of the land. I don't think it's smart to provide everyone with land and let everyone have a say on what get's planted. It's ridiculous, if you think about it. The person who, I would want to have total control over the planting would be the farmers and plant experts. I wouldn't want a mechanic having a say in what gets planted, or have a general labourer idiot have an equal say in what get's planted. That's insane. What if you applied the same to medicine? Would everyone get a say on how surgery was performed, or on what medication treats what illness? Of course not. So when it comes to farming and food, why does everyone get a fair say then too? Would it not be better to leave it to the specialists? We leave mechanics to fix vehicles, doctors to treat patients, and everyone in the community for growing plants?!?!?! HU? That doesn't work at all.

Does a doctor or mechanic know what plants can grow on boggy soil? What about crop rotation? How about seasonal planting, plant nutrition, fertiliser, when to harvest, and the alike?

The same with allotments. You are basically saying, unless you know what you're doing, you're going to starve. So the community breaks down, people lie, cheat, steal, and kill, just to eat, and we're back to square one.

The forager will ignore their allotment, the labourer will use guess work, the doctor won't have time for it, and the mechanic will use it for oil disposal (joke). So now he labourer, doctor, and mechanic are all hungry and kick the crap out of everyone else with food.

This socialist system isn't working too well. A municipal body, to oversee the individual processes makes sense. Kind of Marxist I guess.

But the fact of the matter is, all people may 'be equal', but all people do not have equal subject knowledge or experience, and so should not get an equal say on everything.

Very good comments that I would like to deal with. However, I would like to focus on the land/food production techniques 1st then come back to your comments because you have some very valid thoughts that have to be taken into consideration. In fact you have touched on areas that would be absolutely vital and critical to the health of any community that sets itself up in this way.

This is along with your comments in your following post. So will look at them together as they are all part and parcel of the same theme that is incredibly important and needs to be considered before people go off half cocked…… please excuse the pun Opps Squirt....

Quote:Highlander
mmmm, not so sure,....ok, so the experts are the ones who will be in charge of the planting, but everyone would ,..or should be allowed to decide what is to be planted, you dont have to be an expert to know what you like to eat

...and also an expert grower may not know the entire benefits of different plants, it would be a good policy to have others who might know the medical qualities of plants for instance

So, I am not so sure,..... there is still an argument for a community control of the planting land

Exactly right. E.g. You like carrots and roast potatoes. I can’t stand them and prefer boiled cabbage and beans.

So you have to consider the range of food types that will encompass the larger proportion of the community so that everyone will have some of the foods they enjoy.

And to hone in further on your point…community control on the planting land…this by default should be any areas that have the best soils to grow food regardless of any communal thoughts that would go against this. Feeding the community has to take precedence over any secondary agreed or implied rights given to being a part of any community.

Quote: Steve
Scottish crofter did so for hundreds of years before the clearances, they farmed on a lot less, a `Rig` was an area of about 75 meters by something like 150-200 meters

Seventy five by two hundred metres is three acres though.

Spot on Steve


First I would like to say thank you to everyone’s thoughts and contributions to this thread so far. There are some very insightful thoughts here. Some of which I would like to put forward alternatives that may or may not be to everyone's taste.

Supplementary to all of the above. Within your food production area(s) you need to consider what water your household will use and how you are going to use the grey water as an additional water resource to your crops. This maybe via a grey water cleansing system into your duck/fish pond which lies above your hidden food garden/forest. It may or may-not include water catchment from rooves that are adjacent to the food production areas.

No matter what you decide, your food production has to be disguised in such a way that any sheeple (for want of a better description) would not recognise it as a food production area.

At the end of the day each of us are individuals and with the coming epoch, we each need to do what we need to do in order to survive. Go it alone, or tentatively set out in community with one another.

Personally, I do not think we have time to get to know and respect one another as individuals before TEOTWAWKI hits us. Instead we are pushed to potentially forming communities that may or may not stand the test of time potentially with people we may or may not like to walk the path of life with. However, if we go down the route of community and working together, we will have to agree to disagree and compromise even if it is second best.

Scythe13. You have pointed out some areas that are of vital importance so I hope both you and others will join in to discuss as a separate topic within the body of “Community What Does It Take”