old blackpowder guns

[Tartar Horde]

I would like to ask folks who have a working knowledge of firearms about old style flintlock/percussion cap weapons. Granted that these weapons will be antiques, but is it the age of the gun that would make it dangerous, or the condition of the barrel etc. Does the fact that they are old mean that they can't be shot due to the metal deteriorating through age, or is it really down to condition?

[Geordie_Rob]

Can't comment on your question, but if you ever shoot one, be sure to have ear protection. They are LOUD!!!. I had the foam ear plugs followed by ear defenders in when at the range & they were still loud as hell. It wouldn't take too many shots to cause permanent damage to unprotected ears.

[Midnitemo]

I was a member of a club when i lived in Bristol that specialised in older gun's and most people shot reproduction gun's not authentic antiques....partly because of there age(value) and partly because of there unknown condition.....black powder is much more volatile than propellant, it explodes when confined rather than burns really quickly...the pressure spike can be enormous and 200+ year old metallurgy can be tired if not flawed from the outset, people xray guns first if they want to shoot pukka oldies.

[CharlesHarris]

[bigpaul]

TH have you got anyone from "Sealed Knot" in your area? they'll know all about black powder guns.

[Midnitemo]

Its not commonly known but you can own a blackpowder/antique gun in fully functioning order if it is considered to be an obsolete caliber...old duelling pistols...pinfires...pepperpots....muskets!!!!! you could buy a wallhanger/boxed pistol then get it xrayed to make sure its safe...commision a mould for the ammo buy some pyrodex p synthetic black powder substitute (legally) and some caps if needed.....and you'd be legally equiped with a functioning gun....the minute you loaded it you would be liable to a five year jail sentence though.

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or if you didn't want to go to the expense of having a bespoke mould made for the ball's you could buy the nearest size under and use an extra thick patch....the lead balls can be bought ready cast in a huge range of sizes....tis a dear way to go about having a functioning gun in your possesion but it requires no paperwork or involvement from tptb which i know a lot of you are paranoid about....much easier to just go the section 2 shotgun route and it would be a much better tool in a shtf scenario.

[CharlesHarris]

Do I understand correctly, that in UK if you own a blackpowder firearm and intend to shoot and practice with it regularly to gain confidence and proficiency with it, you need to belong to a gun club or have legal access to rural farmland where you are allowed to hunt? What type of licence is required? Would the shotgun licence cover this?

Just trying to understand the world you live in....and to count my blessings.

[Steve]

We aren't allowed to hunt with pistols in the UK, and I think it's sensible. We are also very unlikely to get permission to target shoot with revolvers on our own land, so club membership is a must.

By the way, 777 works well in ROA, 35grns is the max recommended charge, which equates to a 44 Special case full. I have used 44 mag cases as a scoop, about 40grns, which is lively. Both with 147grn ball, CCI standard cap.

[Midnitemo]

I don't think you can hunt with a black powder gun mainly because of the minimum criteria....I cant think of a bp rifle that makes all the dear legal requirements in the uk as for vermin control I know of nobody personally who uses a bp weapon but I'm sure some do(bp shotguns) most black powder shooters shoot on ranges and usually on a range day that the club has designated as a black powder day, only exception being gallery ranges where you can use what you like as long as its below the range parameters....owning and use of black powder is licensed too!!!!! separately to the guns.

[Mortblanc]

I would like to ask folks who have a working knowledge of firearms about old style flintlock/percussion cap weapons. Granted that these weapons will be antiques, but is it the age of the gun that would make it dangerous, or the condition of the barrel etc. Does the fact that they are old mean that they can't be shot due to the metal deteriorating through age, or is it really down to condition?

OK Tarter Horde you have just entered my area of academic expertise. Got the degree in Cultural Resources Management and Museum Management and Conservation to go with it. I have the workshop full of dismantled parts waiting to be returned to usable condition that goes with this obsession too!

And since you did not ask about "modern BP guns" I will not give a thesis on that marketing dominated subject.

A gun never gets too old to fire.

It can get too neglected(rust), too abused(overloaded and shot loose) or too worn(normal wear and abrasion removing metal) to shoot.

With BP guns, and firearms in general, it is the construction and condition that determines safety.

A well made gun that is in good condition and that is 500 years old will still be safe to shoot.

I have seen museum specimens from the early 1700s that I would shoot without hesitation. And needless to say, I have seen some modern made trash I would not touch with a pole!

However, while inspecting and renovating hundreds of original guns, I have come to realize that standards of manufacture and safety have changed radically over the years and I have to address that problem when speaking of a "well made, in good condition specimen".

One of the areas of construction that has changed over the years is the breech plug, the closure of the rear of the barrel. It is normally a threaded plug.

In the old days the plug might be 1/2 inch long with crude hand cut threads. The plug fit might be so lose it could be turned in and out of the breech with only finger pressure. That was normal and expected in the old days so that men in the field could unbreech and clear a load that failed to shoot.

Today most of the breech plugs are 3/4" long with precision machined threads, set to a crush fit in the breech and often pinned in place with a hardened dowel.

The second area of concern is the thickness of the barrels. Modern barrels are thick to excess for insurance purposes. Old gun barrels are normally about half the thickness of modern tubes, some are paper thin, and if there is any corrosion or rust intrusion from the inside of the tube they have little margin for error.

In order to determine if one of the old muzzle loading pistols is safe requires that one tear it down and inspect the parts for quality, fit and finish. One must know exactly what they are looking for.

I have two smoothbore guns that I restocked using original barrels. I have fired both those guns in the field and in competition. Sad to say, neither will outshoot my modern made BP barrels.

I have dozens on friends that shoot original/antique muzzle loading firearms on a regular basis. Most of them are long guns due to the scarcity of pistols in the history of our area. People were free to carry their rifles and smoothbores without hindrance so their need for a concealable weapon was less than in more cosmopolitan areas. I have one friend that inherited a fine boxed double barrel percussion 10 gauge that was brought from Germany, in the 1860s, by his ancestors. He shoots it in BP clay bird competition several times each year.

I note that the conversation almost automatically went to cap and ball revolvers. They are an entirely different breed of firearm from the single shot muzzle loading pistol or long gun.

In may cases the C&B revolver is a product that was manufactured by mass production standards to strict tolerances from metals that were equal to what is available today. I have encountered fine old Colt and Remington Army .44 revolvers and .36 navy revolvers that were passed down through families and were still being shot regularly. In some cases I have repaired original C&B revolvers using parts produced by Uberti or Pedersoli and sent them back out to be shot for another 150 years. Some were still as tight and sound as the day they were made.

As for the "legalities", I did not see that addressed in the OP so why sidetrack the thread with it?