old blackpowder guns

[CharlesHarris]

All good points. While I am not certain as to historical use in the British Army, in the US, well into the first several years of the Civil War, the common smoothbore usket combat ammunition for the .69 calibre guns was a single musket ball and three buckshot. The idea was that the larger ball would hit close to point of aim, wheteas the three buckshot would disperse into a wider pattern, which increased the density of volley fire when used against tight formations of massed troops.

It would be worthwhile to experiment with this type of loading.

[Mortblanc]

In do stand corrected on the bore size scales, I should have checked rather than relying n my memory.

The reason the military muskets of the BP era were considered not accurate was due to a couple of factors.

First, the muskets were not always bored true and the barrel bore did not line up with the big chunk of metal that served as both "sight" and bayonet lug.

Second, was training. The troops were trained for speed rather than accuracy. They were encouraged to ignore ignore aiming and turn their heads and close their eyes due to the flash and ignition cloud of the lock.

As for the loading of buck and ball. It has ben tested and found wanting. The multiple loading detracts from bot buckshot and solid ball, making both less accurate and useful than either alone.

I believe it was more a physiological thing than a combat effective thing. It sounds really grizzly but in reality is not.

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I can also verify that is not effective in modern shot-shells either.

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The most effective smoothbore musket loading is large buckshot inside the 50 yard mark.

Past 50 yards the greatest improvement to any musket would be the addition of a front/rear sight and a tight patch on the ball.

[CharlesHarris]

Thanks for the clarification on "buck & ball." I had surmised as much, but had never tried it in muzzleloaders.
I was not impressed with the modern 12-ga. buck & ball loads fired in a typical pump action riot shotgun.

Best overall results with US Foster-type slugs and modern buffered buckshot loads are obtained with improved cylinder.

The standard 9-pellet load of 00 buckshot is quite effective against personnel to 50 yards in modern guns and loads.

The 27-pellet load of #4 buckshot is recommended for interior guard when risk of over-penetration must be avoided, but it is not effective against automobile tyres, doors, or glass.

Shotgun slugs are effective against automobiles to 50 yards and against personnel to well over 100 yards. Expert shots can achieve 50% hits on silhouette targets with slugs at 200 yards.

[Mortblanc]

I have been doing a lot of research with buckshot, slug and single round ball loads in modern shotguns of late. Still have more testing to do before calling the experiments complete.

I am casting my own slugs, round ball and buckshot and reloading my own loads. It makes testing much cheaper and I can actually afford to shoot enough rounds to have valid results.

I am casting my own buckshot from #F shot through 000 along with round ball in .60 caliber for 20 gauge and .69 for 12 gauge.

And I am not doing the mall ninja down the hall at 10 feet stuff. The testing is mostly at 40 yards and farther.

Also testing with a variety of chokes as well as two guns with complete choke tube sets including turkey tubes and rifled tubes.

I have been shooting shotguns for the better part of 50 years and the testing has opened my eyes to some new things.

People do not give the shotgun credit for its true capabilities.

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It is the same for the smoothbore muzzle loader. I have shot competition with them for years and have friends that can shoot a musket right along side a ML rifle right out to 100 yards.

[CharlesHarris]

Agree on the utility of the shotgun. Its onlt drawback is the weight and bulk of its ammunition, but the subsistence farmer and outdoorsman who practices skilled fieldcraft can make do with only a few rounds, especially if keeping a low profile and avoiding any form of combat.

[Timelord]

20Gauge in a high capacity pump format would be much more useful for a prep situation. The 12G is great for static or vehicle action or for use in a fire team/squad, but as you say CH, is heavy and the ammo is bulky for individual on foot use. 20Gauge is still a lot of firepower and has been considered in military circles. It was prototyped but never utilised due to the standard available ammo being 12G and the limited issue of shotguns to military personnel. There was never the will to set up or pay for a new calibre shotgun to be rolled out amongst the Forces.

Also IMO the smaller .410 shotgun is very much underestimated. In reality this is a smoothbore multi-projectile launcher with a longer barrel than a .45 Semi-auto pistol. This longer barrel achieves greater projectile acceleration than a .410 or .45 pistol would. 5xOO buckshot can be squeezed in a .410 cartridge. That is still a lot of firepower from a much smaller and lighter weapon than a 12 or 20 gauge. Alternative loads like flechettes or slug can be used. A 4.10 slug or should we say a .410 bullet fried from a long barrelled gun is no mean slouch!
If the gun was a high capacity pump action it would be ideal and easy to carry. The ammo is pretty small and much more can be carried than the equivalent 12Gauge. A high capacity mag could be designed to hold far more shells than a larger calibre shotgun. The reloading materials including powder are much less than for a large 12G calibre or even a 20G shell. The gun is easier to carry concealed if necessary. The recoil is small and so the gun can be held on target easier for repeat shots.
It is in a way a tool along the same lines as a .38/.357 lever action carbine but in a smooth bore configuration with a more reliable pump action mechanism. It can also be used for the same role as the often admired(or not) .22LR rimfire rifle but is able to do much more and deal out greater damage with its larger calibre. It is obviously also an excellent tool using small shot for hunting smaller game which is more likely in many scenarios.
A pretty good allround preppers weapon that is not readily available but could quite easily be put together by a gunsmith.

[Talon]

The 410 is a very over looked round.Power wise they're comparable to a .357 (if i remember correctly) .The two big issues for me though are the effective hunting distance (when using shot) and also the scarcity of the 410 if you need to scavenge to re supply (the same reason i sold my 20 gauge) They're also bloody expensive,I used to have a 410 Enfield and feeding it cost an arm and a leg,it also got some funny looks at the clay ground

If using shot you're really restricted to 25-30 yards as the cartridge just doesn't have the space to hold enough shot to guarantee a clean kill beyond those ranges (lots of open holes in your shot pattern ),and the 410 can have a tendency to string the shot so instead of an expanding disc of shot you get a string.

For me slugs are the way to go with the 410 (for UK defense) and I wouldn't feel undergunned



My biggest worry though is resupply.Where I live the 12 gauge is king and every farm has one.If and when i ran out of ammunition I would have a much better chance of scavenging more cartridges as the 12 gauge is the most common type of ammunition in blighty.Of course you have the problem of increased weight and less ammunition you can carry.

If I had the spare cash I would splash out on a Bretton Gaucher 410 and 2000 cartridges with a slug mold tucked away just incase.
The 20 gauge is a fine cartridge but again it's just not as popular as the 12 so resupply would be a problem.
It's all a trade off.For me despite it's weight and size the 12 gauge is what i've opted for,but if/when i have the cash I wouldn't say no to a silenced 410 and lots of cartridges. The Bretton Gaucher is silenced with a cylinder bore and can be fitted with a scope (the French use them for slug hunting)


Getting back on topic I just missed out on a .45 smoothbore Hawken reproduction with double set triggers.Gutted

[Midnitemo]

Ive considered a 20 gauge in the past but i've never ever found any factory shells availble in 00buck AAA or any of the larger shot types.....its difficult enough buying bulk quantities of those shot types in 12 gauge in 20 its damn near impossible in the UK....i'd love a handier package but for me it's not practical with +20% dearer to buy and run a 20

[Midnitemo]

as for size/weight of 12 gauge....i have some lyavale 2 inch(50mm case) 26gram no 6 shot that go some way towards helping with the size weight issue, ok for hunting and you could wax them to make a harder hitting round for security needs....a good twenty percent lighter than my normal hunting 32gram no5's and a decent bit smaller in size/space taken up....there my bug out bag choice of cartridge.

[Timelord]

Reloading materials are very very cheap from Siarm in Italy. Check it out... This makes speciality loads no problem to manufacture. The chance of finding or scavenging 12gauge ammo PSHTF is not a guaranteed option. The ammo may become particularily important to those already holding it. Having reloading materials and some simple tools or a small portable hand reloader is a more definite way of being prepped for any situation. In this case, the .410 becomes very efficient on powder and reloading materials to keep running. A shorter effective range using smaller shot is probably all that is required for opportunistic hunting of small game. Traps could be set up for predetermined & longer visual range hunting for a more efficient result than using a firearm and possibly drawing attention to oneself. A .410 will still readily drop birds like pheasents etc. The 12gauge is possibly overkill for small game. Yes there will be more shot flying but there are drawbacks to that in a PSHTF scenario. I have nothing against 12gauge, I like them myself, I also fancy the possibilities often overlooked of the smaller smoothbore weapons systems. TL