Can we Re-Build Civilisation after Collapse.

[John]

There appears to one or two items on the Internet recently following on from Beyond Collapse: Surviving and Rebuilding Civilization From Scratch by TJ Miller. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6e3oH1L...edit?pli=1
The basis of these articles appears to be on how to Re-Boot civilisation after the collapse although it is thought it may take many years and time lines appear to about 100 years or so.
Let me stress that it would in all probability be impossible to revert to anything like we have now and although it is admitted that we may well be able to have some electricity in the initial years continuing that would probably be impossible.
The main things to consider in this are:
The numbers involved in both the initial die-off and the following die-off from starvation, cold and medical problems etc. So therefore the number of survivors.
The fact that we are a specialised civilisation and no one how to do everything. This point is made very eloquently in Leonard Read’s 1958 essay written from the perspective of one of our most basic tools, ‘I, Pencil’. The astounding conclusion is that because the sourcing of raw materials and production methods are so dispersed, there is not a single person on the face of the Earth who has the ability and resources to make even this simplest of implements.
The fact that many, if not all of the raw materials that allowed us to become as developed as we are will no longer be easily and readily available. Coal and oil to mention just two. And so we will not have the energy to mine substances. Many of our non-renewable materials are already at or near expiration date.
http://topshelfbook.com/wp-content/uploa...wledge.pdf
This is one book in question.
Although I agree with some that is mentioned I do not see that it is going to be possible to get back to anything like the level of civilisation that we have today.
You serious and thoughtful comments appreciated but I suggest you have a look at both of the above and do some research, like reading I pencil before you reply.

[Scythe13]

I would tend to agree in the most part. However, human ingenuity (and my bad spelling) is never to be underestimated.

Without question we would be able to get to where we are today, and further! We are people and if we have managed to do it once, we SHOULD, in theory, be able to get back to where we are now, and develop those kinds of technologies even further. Think about the Mayan calendar. Their civilisation was lost and gone, but we have equally accurate calendars now. The same with the Inca and Babylonians. The majority of their technology is back in circulation, and it has been surpassed.

Granted, I wouldn't have any idea of how to build a camera, let alone build one into a phone. But the basic principles of ingenuity and team work still apply. I do not know how to extract pencil lead material from the planet earth. But I can create charcoal and thus have a substitute. I can create electricity from bits of metal and lemon juice.

The thing is, so much raw material has already been created for us. We have sooo much ink, batteries, and the alike. It would be possible to reverse engineer a lot of the stuff we already have. Magnifying glasses and the alike will still be available.

I know I can make glass. I have experimented with sand and a mini furnace. I have even played around with recycling glass...which there will be plenty of.

Wires...plenty available.

Solar panels, computer units, and things like that, will still be available. The individual components will be around too.

No doubt it will take a while for us to get back to the level where we are today. However, it will happen. I believe, it will happen much faster than most people expect. For example. I know I could create a water wheel and produce electricity. Could I do it from scratch, I.E. mine the raw ore, etc? Hell no! But I could recycle the components already available to me. The thing is, I'm not even that smart.

In a scenario, using the examples I've already mentioned:
Already I have created a glass house to grow plants, maybe even one to live in. I have a constant supply of renewable electricity. It's simple enough to create an electric motor (a load of magnets, even more electrical wire, and a couple of ball bearing brackets). Job's a gooden.

[John]

I like the 'SHOULD' in theory, and sorry to say that’s all it will be.

Regarding the Mayan and the others the difference with re-building from them onward is that all the non-renewable resources were still in place and more so easily accessible. All the resources that have enabled us to get to where we are today are getting harder to get out of the ground and more expensive and it is only our access to power that enables us to access those resources. Coal, the pumps that enable deep mining, oil is similar.

Raw material that you say has already been created for us has all but gone, been used up. You may be getting confused with what that raw material has been made into.

The problem we have is that the majority of resources are non-renewable. Though that is not really correct, oil is renewable, may be, over many millions of years that we can, like with coal class it as non-renewable. So once it is gone it is gone. Rather like selling off the family silver, once you have the cash for it and have spent it, it is gone. You only have whatever you bought with it to show.

'Solar panels, computer units, and things like that, will still be available. The individual components will be around too.'

Yes and as I said they will eventually deteriorate, break down, wear out. How is one going to be able to repair a solar panel, or computer. Never mind the generation of electric to power it.

Yes you may have this for a while post SHTF but within about 100 years it will all be gone. The individual parts will be gone as well.
Try reading the two books reference in my post.

You said could you do it, and then said no. Well I really like the honesty and it applies to all of us because of the specialisation that we have today. Yes again recycle parts, cannibalise and it will get people through may be about 100 years post SHTF, but that is it.
So again can we re-build civilisation, or even would we want to re-build civilisation.

My response would be no and no.
I appreciate your input but please read the two books first or at least skim read them and see what they are saying.
It will likely not be you or me that it concerns but our future generation and I don’t fancy the idea of them looking back and saying, ‘our selfish ancestors, they gave no thought about us.’

[Skean Dhude]

Too late mate. Our grandkids are saying that now.

[River Song]

I have read Beyond Collapse at least twice. I don't know the other book.

In some respect the OP is correct. It will take a long time (if ever) to get back to some rudimentary levels of Civilization. Nonetheless if the alternative is outright anarchy, then we should at least try.

It's possible that sociologically we might be looking at some form of tribal unit. We might not have the raw materials to repair tools or make new ones, but never ever underestimate human ingenuity. We create afresh.

The only caveat I would make is that even if political and social units get smaller, they may have very little 'spunk' to keep them going.

[Scythe13]

(29 April 2014, 21:52)River Song Wrote: The only caveat I would make is that even if political and social units get smaller, they may have very little 'spunk' to keep them going.

Even with that being the case, human beings have colonised and small units will become big groups, and cities will start again.

I don't think we'll go back to identical living, but different. We will eventually be more advanced, e.g. replace oil for fuel with hydrogen cells and things like that.

[bigpaul]

I love your enthusiasm Scythe, but unfortunately whilst we still have the oil lobby and the petro chemical industry no "alternative technology" will be forthcoming, and by the time they realise we actually need something like this it will be too late. politics is the cause of many of todays problems.

[River Song]

Oil Lobby and petro chemical industry? You may be right - however the overall feel if that is what I call the
"politics of despair".

Much as I would hate to borrow anything from Obama ..........

"YES WE BLOODY WELL CAN"

[bigpaul]

maybe for awhile "stuff" will be lying around, maybe enough for everyone on this site to obtain their fair share, but what then? when its all used up? without the knowledge of not only how to dig it up...providing there is any left in the ground by then...but how to process it to the required degree.....how do you process anything without power? within a few generations..if not before..most knowledge will be lost........before many generations are past most humans wont even know how to read and write(heck, there are some leaving school NOW cant do that).

[River Song]

Sorry BP but that is still the counsel of despair.

Stuff laying around? Yes of course we will scavenge for a while and of course of that's all
there is then it will run out. But scavenging is not the only way. We re-invent. We put things together in
different ways. We use things in ways they were not intended. As an example take a look at Cuba before it gets more commercial. What that country has done in the face of isoliation is most ingenious. Take a visit to the Imperial War Museum and see how prisoners of war constructed stuff.

Knowledge? Then build a Noahs Ark Library. Preferably Hard Copy.

Yes it can be done and who knows? You too may have a song in your heart and a smile on your lips.