Starting to get "it"

[NorthernRaider]

Am I finally starting to “Get it” it’s taken a long long time for it to sink in, and it’s taken the enlightening and informative style of writing by American author Glen Tate who wrote 299 Days for it finally get it to start being absorbed into my head.

In Glen’s book he points out time after time that very often no matter how well your intentions are and no matter how hard you try there are always more people you cannot help than those you can.

You can try to bring your point of view about being prepared for Societal Collapse or Natural Disaster or Civil Unrest but all too often your efforts fail and at times you can alienate and offend people by trying to change or discredit their views and only offends those you wanted to help.

It is good to try and help and advise people who WANT to learn more about self-reliance, survivalism, prepping and self-sufficiency, it also good to help others who WANT to be better placed to take ever more responsibility for their own lives, lifestyle choices and responsibilities.

But as Glen points out in his book you are wasting valuable time, effort and resources on trying to bring people who believe in the primacy of the STATE (government, authorities, welfare state, health system, military etc) to always be there for them when things go wrong and who have a sense of unearned entitlement.

Perhaps because all too often the state and the system IS the cause of the crisis that people are trying to survive.

Those honest folks whose beliefs in the supremacy of the welfare state and large all-encompassing government as described by Glen in reference to his own home state of Washington MUST be respected because they are often very deeply held, regarded and believed, just as they are equally passionately held by many in the UK.

Glen in his book gives multiple examples of how his efforts to try and help others by warning them of a forthcoming economic collapse in the US nearly always backfired in his face and caused him to hurt or upset those close to him, including his own wife. In time he found it far more practical and beneficial to simply focus on find others to work with who had ALREADY reached the same conclusions as himself, rather than try to change the mind set of those with other beliefs.

In his book rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view Glen frequently associates those with a total belief in big government and a welfare state were also those least likely to believe the state and system could never possibly fail them. (As the people of Tottenham UK found out in 2010 to their cost when the police were withdrawn leaving the community to fend for itself)

And it is from this he begins to realise that trying to change the political beliefs of other people was most definitely a waste of time, who knows perhaps THEY were right.

This is the point that I have been slow to pick up on, all too often I was a guilty as Glen’s lead character of trying to persuade people that belief in state / welfare/ big government / sense of entitlement is not conducive to prepping or society for them or me, often ending badly for everyone. That’s definitely not a good place to be.

So Glens approach is to seek out and cooperate with those astute enough to realise there is an Elephant in the kitchen and to be polite and respectful to those who wish to continue to live day to day expecting and believing the state will ALWAYS care for and protect them, but to give up on them and not involve them (including his wife in the book) in his plans, preps and efforts. IE Leave them to get on with their lives as they choose and focus on finding others who have already started severing links with the system and are willing to make financial, physical and personal sacrifices to prepare.

“They made their beds and now they can lay in them”
“Help ONLY those who want to help themselves”
“You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink”
“If you have the information those best placed to benefit from it will find it for themselves”
“To the state you are a number or statistic , to your prep group you are an individual”

[bigpaul]

or as I say "YOUR failure to prep is not MY emergency!"

[Midnitemo]

my group is like this....they think I'm a bit nut's and have a laugh about it whils't I now quietly get on with the prepping....if they weren't family I'd just ignore them but the bond's are strong , partner, daughter and younger son are the only ones who are ok with it but even they just humour me....ces't la vie.

[John]

Yes I often feel the same particularly with things like was suggested in the post 'Where Most Prepping Falls Short'.
There are those who do prepare who really think that it will get back to some sort of normality after the event. They just can not comprehend that it may not. Look at electric, they go for solar or even hydro which is OK but what if it does not get back to any sense of normality. No more spares, no repairman to sort out a break down.
What then...
But yes I post this, I get slated off, no it will not happen. OK sorry I just cannot spare the time or resources to try to convince you to at least consider it.
But don't blame me.
Then we get a post like this, so what it is to be. I am looking for those astute enough to realize there is an Elephant in the kitchen as has been said.
Anyone want to take me up that then contact BP and he will forward me your email address so we can take it further.
I don't check the site too regularly or any PM's.
Up to you.

[NorthernRaider]

My group consists of my family and a few other established preppers who came to prepping after working things out for themselves and decided to do something about it, plus some prepper friends from around the country. We tend to get together simply when its convenient and / or we are in the area of another members home.. We tend to do most of our comms via text or E mail often simply sharing articles or links to pertinent news so we don't suffer from trolls or empire builders, folks join or leave discussions as it suits them. Indeed some folks will often rejoin a debate after quite a long period of time when they realise they have more to add. EG the other day I forwarded a post to one of the E mail groups and within 24 hours another member very intelligently critiqued the post, updated it and offered simpler more cost effective and easier alternatives to what the original post had offered, it was very welcome. The exchange of articles, tips , advice and links on some days can be quite a lot, then nothing for a week or to until another issue gets our attention.

I like the way the book very cleverly shows how its actually not beneficial to anyone for preppers to try and change the mindset and beliefs of other people who at that time do not share the same beliefs or common values as the books lead character, they book shows well that a prepper is much wiser simply sticking to finding people who have ALREADY become committed to the prepper culture. This is the point I hope to remember the most.

The best bit is like the best bits of the online forums, people give their time and effort willingly and ask for nothing in return, no fees, no obligations, no organisation, no commitments, no "rules" or moderation just a desire to discuss, debate and share useful stuff.

Respects to all

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And at least I don't need to try and keep a couple of Dexter cattle in the conservatory to keep up with a certain other person, I will consider miniature goats now.

[John]

This may be where it all goes wrong.
I note you say 'My' and 'I' as in my group, that is I own it or I am the leader.
I'm the boss.

But the biggest thing is that you still don't actually get it.
It is not a question of who is right or wrong or is the boss, it a question of getting out the box to see what is outside and not being blinkered.

You see the question is 'IF', what happens, what do you do, or your group, I mean you are the leader, if this SHTF does not get back to anywhere near 'normal'.

OK you got solar, which not only will one day have part wear out and no spares, that's if you are knowledgeable enough to fit them, but new parts cannot be make.
BTW I think I got this right but your solar will not work unless you have batteries for storage, some thing like that. It appeared to be that many who had panels installed would not be able to use them in event of power cut.

Anyway back to the point, what are your plans for living in a post SHTF world with no power, sort of stone age.
I am not saying I am right and I really hope hope it doesn't come about but should we not at least consider it.
No of course you won't, you will all come up with your excuses and that everyone is different etc. etrc.

OK yes we are but I can't figure out why you don't want to even consider it.
Probably enjoying your cruse up that rive in Egypt....Denial.

[NorthernRaider]

What a load of twaddle John

I say my group because it consists of my family, simple as that, there is neither structure nor obligation just my family group and an a loose adhoc basic other preppers who join or separate as they see fit, the only even slightly organised bit is the e mail group for staying in touch and sharing information, its all that is needed.

There are no leaders in the loose alliance that for convenience I refer to as my group, nor would I dare to even suggest to the other preppers who are equal in all things, we come together to simply cooperate. We turn to those who have the expertise for advice on a particular subject just like we do here on SUK, EG If its radio comms I'll rely on Lightspeeds wisdom, Archery Tartar Hoard, Medical my wife, Construction and Home steading HALetc etc
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Please feel free to try and persuade everyone that your way is correct that's what forums are for, I prefer to let people make up their own minds about alternatives, that way they can benefit from the openness and transparency of SUK and find people of a similar mindset of their own.

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BTW I thought you wanted your account closing because you did not like being challenged or critiqued ???

[John]

Anything you don't agree with is just written of as twaddle or rubbish, you don't get it or more correctly you don't want to even think about it.
You don't even want to consider what you and yours would do if it did not get back to any semblance of normality.
That is what concerns me, just that people have a threat, that threat is that there is a possibility, no matter how small, that it may not get back to any semblance of normality and it is just not even considered.You enjoy your cruse.
But it really is no concern of mine I suppose, good luck but if per chance it does to hell in a hand basket then don't come down my way.

Now you have a nice day, enjoy life.
I will monitor this forum, because occasionally it does have an interesting bit on but mainly so that I can see who may be a threat in the future.

10-4

[NorthernRaider]

No John what I called TWADDLE was you childish and wrong assumption that I claimed the GROUP was MINE as some sort of leader, when in fact the opposite is true, my main and just about only role apart from looking after my own family is to act as a hub for the group to relay posts and info to each other and nothing more. They guys and gals call in when they are in the area when it suits them and they are under no obligation to do anything.

Point TWO you say
"But it really is no concern of mine I suppose, good luck but if per chance it does to hell in a hand basket then don't come down my way. . "

If it is of no concern of yours then why are you trying to persuade people to flock to your cause?
Trust me I definitely will not be heading anywhere near your way.

Again feel free to make your own case on the forum, if you are so hard done by and feel your concept is correct then feel free to talk about it.

How do you know that you are not part of the E mail group? You are ASSUMING you know what other people talk about, AND I know BP for one is always discussing a return to a pre industrial revolution style of survival. You have NO idea what we talk about.

Point THREE you say
"But it really is no concern of mine I suppose, good luck but if per chance it does to hell in a hand basket then don't come down my way."

What a superb attitude to try and attract people to your way of thinking, now not to get interested people to talk to you.

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One bit that John simply does not GET is many people prep for many different things, not everyone is prepping for the end of society, some are, some are not, simple as that.
I know on this forum there are folks prepping for urban unrest, unemployment, Ebola, Terrorism, Repressive government, winter storms, mega tsunamis, NWO, crop failure, the EUSSR etc etc ALL of their opinions are important to them and that is what matters.

People I am sure have considered his scenario and CHOSEN to not plan for it, its for THEM the preppers et al to decide what is right for them. Everyone can and should if they feel strongly about their concerns and make their case if they are driven enough, but others ( thankfully) will challenge, debate, disagree, discount, offer alternatives or simply say NO and that is how it should be.

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In fairness to John if folks are genuinely thinking they will be going back to living as john puts it " what are your plans for living in a post SHTF world with no power, sort of stone age." Then I am sure they will PM or E mail him or bring it up on the forums, bring on the discussions.

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Now for the interesting bit

John said I was attacking him and his opinions in the other thread, lets investigate what I actually said right up to the bit where John decided he wanted to stop the debate and leave the forum.
Sooooo

1 John made his post

2 My first response was
"An interesting and intelligent contribution to the debate, refreshing and welcome. "

then the rest of my posts interspersed with other posts right up til John said he wanted to stop was the following

3
One aspect of many indigenous nomadic cultures is they like many of the animals they relied upon had to migrate over long distances, when our ancestors last had to do that the uk was still connected to the continent via Doggerland. Settled communities of hunter gatherers were left to the mercy of local climatic events such as droughts or climate change like the Clovis in the US.
One aspect often overlooked I think is the huge amounts of sea food available if the right skills and kit are available.

4
Good post steve, I struggle to envisage a return to such primitive conditions in reality, but I have to respect and accept others views or threat scenarios, who knows what could happen. I don't think there will ever be a consensus on this but its handy to explore all options.

5
I think that even the US would struggle to feed itself without Petrochems for fuel and fertiliser and electricity.

6
Though our population has risen in excess of 20 million since the end of WW2 when we struggled to feed our people today we have far more advanced agricultural systems and much more productive land, BUT (always a but isn't there?) Modern agriculture is utterly reliant on chemical fertilisers and pesticides made from oil, the plant and agricultural equipment is utterly reliant on oil products.

Our WAR reserves of fuel will support the MILITARY for nearly 90 days but that same fuel if redirected to the entire nations food production industry would only last a week or two.

God knows which horrible scenario is likely to come to pass, the best we can do is try and use as broad a brush as possible with our preps.

7
John, I think you are still trying to build a prepper community with you in charge as you muted some years ago, it wont work for multiple reasons then or now. You appear and intransigent as the others of strong opinions, try embracing and respecting them all its easier than fighting them.

That was my TOTAL contribution to the thread up to John deciding he did not want to debate any more and wanted to close his account.

[Tarrel]

I think NR, that your original post could be summed up as;
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."