4 x 4 yeah but which one and why ?

[Straight Shooter]

I have had a 2.8 Pajero Bitch for years...without problems...comfort ,power, solid as a rock ...engine bullet prof , in fact i have two...but thinking of a change and a landy should fit the bill and tick all the boxes, BIL has a TD5 ....in fact he has four and a range rover , he does some green lane stuff and loves it ! he is a mechanic by trade ...and a good one....so here's the thing what 4x4 would you pick and why....what do you own right now .....are you happy with it ? .

[NorthernRaider]

For off road capability Landies rule, but they are near or at the bottom of the annual motor trade survey for vehicle reliability, as the wise often say " if your landy is not broken down its about to" It Appears to most folks from Farmers, to Top gear to Somali terrorists that vehicles like the Toyota Hilux is the most bullet proof reliable followed by the Mitsubishi Warrior family.

My own preference is functionality and reliability over anything else so for me

Budget buy Dacia Duster 4x4
Compact buy Suzuki Jimney 4x4
Work hog buy Toyota Hilux type / Mitsubishi warrior type
Mainstream conformist but Ford Ranger / F150
Fat lazy bastard buy Toyota Land Cruiser Amazon
Serious EDC offroader buy Land Rover but with one as a spare
Loaded buy Pinzgaur or Bremach

[NorthernRaider]

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/d...s-and-suvs

[MaryN]

Landies rule!

[bowdrill]

Wish i still had my pajero best truck ive ever had got a l200 warrior now,
engine blew on me so had new one (second hand ) just had head gasket done not impressed
gett about 300 mile a tank 60ish quid to fill
not a comfortable car for long journeys
turning circle on it no tesco trolley be better
Room in the back loads good weight carrier and with the right tyres yes love it in tge muddy fields
Would i buy one again no
mate got a toyota land cruser nice truck other mate got toyta bloody good truck good on juice but back seats uncomfy
me if i had my way a pajero again

bd

[CharlesHarris]

In the US you see few Landies but Ford F150s and older pre-2005 Jeep Cherokees rule. I have 200,000 miles on my 2000 year model Cherokee 6 cyl 4L engine. Sold my 1994 Ford F250 diese 1 ton with the IH "cornbinder" engine in it and buddy who bought it used it to move to Texas and is still driving it four years later.

Daily commuter is a 2008 Toyota Matrix hatchback which just passed 100,000 miles andhas been economical and reliable.

[Devonian]

Defenders/110/90's are about as reliable as you can get, and if you do break them, you can usually fix them at the roadside and get them going again.

Stories of Land Rover reliability are like urban myths. How many other vehicles have been in production for 60+ years and still have 70+% of them still operating and driving on the roads. Even the modern TD5's are pretty much bullet proof and are the choice of 'extreme' off-roaders being used in space framed buggies and rock crawlers etc.

Yes the Toyota Hilux and Land Cruisers are great vehicles, but come on, this is the UK, if you need to find spares before or after an event, well the country is riddled with Landies everywhere, you can't say the same about Toyota's or Jeep's or Dacia's....., so the choice for me is simple.

Also Defenders are NOT comfortable, they are not necessarily even that practical, but they are hugely capable, have massive third party spares and part suppliers (in addition to the main dealers) and most importantly of all they put huge grin on your face every time you drive one. So for me its an easy decision.

[T-oddity]

Landies are practical and I've owned a few and worked on plenty and even lived out of the back of some, but I prefer my Mitzi Delica for convert.

[NorthernRaider]

Oh look whats at the bottom end of the reliability survey again

Top 10 most reliable cars 2015

1. Toyota iQ 98.81%
2. Lexus NX 98.71%
3. Lexus IS Mk3 98.58%
4. Hyundai i10 Mk2 98.46%
5. Honda Jazz Mk2 97.86%
6. Lexus GS Mk3 97.59%
7. Toyota RAV4 Mk4 97.50%
8. Nissan LEAF 97.45%
9. Kia Picanto Mk2 97.14%
10. SEAT Leon Mk3 96.90%

Bottom 10 cars for reliability

191. Citroen C5 Mk2 86.88%
192. Land Rover Range Rover Sport Mk1 86.00%
193. Peugeot 407 85.91%
194. Alfa Romeo MiTo 85.35%
195. Volvo V50 85.21%
196. BMW 3 Series Coupe/Convertible Mk5 84.78%
197. Ford Galaxy Mk3 83.56%
198. BMW 5 Series Mk5 83.48%
199. Land Rover Range Rover Mk3 79.57%
200. Land Rover Discovery Mk3 78.36%
Driver Power 2015 customer satisfaction survey...

[Lightspeed]

BIL being a competent mechanic with good LR experience makes a bit of a difference in the decision, particularly if he's local to you.

I think there is some truth in the reliability advantage of Japanese vehicles, but when they do go wrong parts availability and cost are big problems.

Parts availability and cost for Land Rovers is much better.

I've done a lot of miles in Landies, all diesel powered, from normally aspirated 2.5s, VM Tdis, 300Tdis, TD5s and TD6 models. I've always needed to be able to keep the vehicle going myself without the support of garages, often in some pretty remote spots.

Although I grumble about some of the nonsensical design and component choices on these vehicles, I have never been totally stranded, LRs have always got me to my destination. Always. That's why I stick with them, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Landies are quite old technology, and that technology demands regular and systematic maintenance. If you are able to do this,have a determined mind-set, don't mind getting oily (very), keep an eye on known areas of failure and adopt an appropriate preventative strategy, these vehicles reward with high levels of reliability and resiliance.

Some thoughts on my experiences with different power plants

Series 2 Classic LR. 2.5L normally aspirated, Selectable 2/4WD, Free wheel hubs, Fairey Overdrive, Power take-off fixed shaft winch, and leaf springs. The perfect Prepper vehicle. Simple, robust. Totally reliable, totally repairable. And totally uncomfortable. Man, I wish I still had that car!

VM 2.4/2.5L TDi This was the first Turbocharged motor fitted to Range Rovers ( Classics). Amazing power output and performance in its day, but fragile Italian engineering of the bought in power plant, that got well and truly overtaken by subsequent 200 and 300 TDi power plants.

In my experience the 300Tdi was the best engine. Its only 2 annoyances for me were both rubber: The rubber timing belt which needed changing every three years and entailed a fair bit of work to get at, and the ancillary drive belt that squeeled like a banshee after a short period of operation and needed replacing (together with tensioner) about once per year. I've taken vehicles powered by these lumps many hundreds of thousands of miles and not once had a problems. In fact the only failure I suffered on these vehicles was one PS pump failure on one at 140,000 miles. Body-rot is likely to be the biggest thing to look out for on vehicles fitted with this motor.

The TD5 is next best. This is the last Land-rover designed and built power plant (its not BMW which many people seem to think). It was designed for reliability and off-road torque, and like all of the preceding LR engines is very flexible on the quality of fuel that it'll take. In the lng term it suffers weakness in injector seals, seems more than averagely prone to cylinder head failures, and self undoing oil pump retaining bolts, all of which can kill the motor in short order. Its also an electronically controlled engine so is totally reliant on ECUs functioning correctly to keep it going. Bottom end is pretty much bullet-proof, and timing is by chain so no fiddling needed there. For proper independence in keeping it going, you'll need to budget in the cost of bespoke diagnostic and configuring computer ( around £250) This will aslo be needed for control and security function s of vehicles in which this engine is fitted.

TD6. Hmm a lovely drive and plenty of power. But very thirsty and mechanical and electrical complexity at a level that for me means LR workshops doing all of the repairs and fettling. You need deep pockets to be able to run these beasts, especially if used in adverse conditions. My very well heeled BIL has a Land-Rover expedition/rally prepared one and complains constantly about its running costs and niggling component failures.

TD8 is better in every respect again, but is also more complex, and totally beyond my skill set and wallet!

Later Defenders came with a Puma 2.5 L power plant. I think this is a Ford unit (?). It has a good reputation. I've never driven one though.

My current vehicle is a TD5 Discovery II. Its great at carrying people in comfort over long range and rough terrain, and retains true off-road and load lugging/ towing capability. Its engine and transmission were designed for off-road control, which it does fine, but at the expense of performance on tarmac. Its let down by having become too sophisticated and car like, with excessive amounts of electronic control of basic functions. But those electronic systems also make it safer and more capable ABS brakes and Hill descent control get used in earnest in the snow and ice every winter up here in the hills. Ideally look out for one that still has a mechanical Diff-lock ( Disco or Defender) as this gives again more resilience. Overall bodies on these are pretty solid, with the corrosion weakness moving to the rear chassis elements.

Cost wise TD5 Discoveries win hands down against equivalent Defenders. They also (appear) to have higher specification, greater creature comforts, while sharing almost identical chassis, drive train and suspension/steering. But the Discovery has a whole lot more padding and electrics to get in the way of maintenance and to go wrong. The truth is that they are harder and more time consuming to work on and their systems being more complex take a greater degree of concentration to understand and fathom out when they go wrong....which they will. In my opinion the lower cost is a reflection of this higher cost of keeping the vehicle going. Also this lower purchase cost means that far more Discos fall into the hands of people who are mechanically incompetent and financially incapable of keeping the cars properly maintained, so as second hand purchases there is a greater risk of picking up a bad-un.

Did I mention that I'm bit of an LR fan???????

Dev, what are the advantages of a Defender over a Disco from your point of view? And do you think they are worth paying the extra for?