Time for AU and AG

[Timelord]

Mutual respect is given. :-) This is useful debate after all and I hope to learn or understand more by it..


I see the darkness you percieve is coming. Banditry is not directly related to outlaws and so therefore transposing it to discussion about the law and the fact it will be irrelevent is not applicable or what I said. Banditry is a description of a type of action that preys on other folk for material gain. This is not about the rule of law. I have said I expect there to be no recognisable rule of law.

I see what some preppers write about there being no rule of law and so therefore not playing by the rules and I see this allows them to think they have free reign to live and murder by the gun. What I am trying to point out (which does not apply to during the SHTF stage), is that humans do not exist together without codes of conduct. These codes do not have to be written or documented by any authority. There have always been natural systems that allow people to coexist and to have mutual gain through it. Wether this relationship is peaceful or forced upon others by stronger wills, it will still have codes of conduct to adhere to. Just expecting to be able to shoot anyone you feel like because thay have something you want is going to result in a bloody mess. Being overconfident in this respect is failing to grasp the real precariousness of the survival situation that may be faced. If you are in a gang of firearms holders that makes its way by preying on others, then you will still be working in a co-operative to codes of conduct. These are not laws! You do not need law & order to live by mutually agreed codes of conduct. 50 years seems a random figure for estimating the start of any strong leaders emerging. Generally leaders emerge pretty soon. I don't think the leaders bit was referring to on a national or regional basis. That could well be 50 years if thats what you meant. There will be leaders right from the word go in surviving or forming communities. Some will wain & some will rise. There have always been those that lead. It is necessary for groups to function.

As for those with weapons not being marginalised, well I think that if there are small groups of guys running round with weapons preying on other folk, then once or if communities form, these raiders will eventually be sought out if they have survived that long. Any raiders that are successful and form larger groups and take others material possessions or resources/land, will in their own turn settle down and form communities. They may be preyed on in turn by others and will act accordingly.

You know you say history is written by the winners and the final answer IS for these winners to be armed to the teeth similarily - this does not mean these winners have to be the trigger happy raiders who are prepared to blow someone away for their stuff. Often in history these raiders had spectacular but short careers. Only the few wrote their history as winners. Mostly it was Autobiographies. Are you going to form an army of distrusting compunctual raiders? With no leader? that would be an interesting cocktail. People band together for mutual support & protection. This contributes to being the winners. There will be guns on all sides, not just the guy who thinks he can do whatever he wants because there being no law & order allows him to do so.

Having bigger guns & firepower does not guarantee success in conflict. Co-operation & co-ordination are also important martial skills. Where the hell are these guys or gangs with superior firepower going to get all their ammo over the years? I have never understood this. In fact how many of these prep experts even have a military calibre semi auto weapon AND the huge stocks of ammo that would be needed?? Not many I bet... How much ammo can you carry on your travels & there will be no military supply train! A lot of these superior weapons could rapidly become obselete as the ammo runs out or repairs are needed. How many preppers with a mil calibre semi auto + heaps of ammo have the ability to repair modern weapons systems? Will these guys with the above mentioned guns have reloading equipment & the knowledge to use it. Do they have all the primers, powders, bullet molds etc etc to make the stuff up? Where do they get fresh empty shell cases from. How do they carry all this stuff? The list is long... So many factors when you really think about it...

I do agree with you about the bad times and the general depravity that may ensue. I am under no illusion and I prepare as such. I understand this general type of thinking about firepower & might is right etc and there is a place for all this in a major SHTF scenario. What I attempt to do is look at the situation in a bigger comprehensive way and to utilize lessons already learnt from our past (cause its hard to learn from the future - at the moment anyway). I just feel that many preppers have a very blinkered close focused view of how their part in it all may play out. I know a self focused view is necessary during & probably immediately after TSHTF, but now is the time to look with a broader view and realise all the many variables & situations that may evolve from it and in by doing be better prepared mentally for when or if some of these situations arise PSHTF. It is not all about surviving by the power of a gun barrel at others expense.

Someone said preppers tend to think long term on these forums, when really only the rule of three applies. That is fair enough but out of context. It is a shame that a discussion on PSHTF scenarios is dragged back to the SHTF stage with all its badness and dismissed as such. There is nothing wrong with discussing prep related long term PSHTF issues. Maybe some people can't see beyond the initial SHTF stage yet and can only see this bleak scenario extending on & on.... Maybe it will , but if it dosn't last forever, then they will not have prepped mentally for the myriad of possibilites that could arise.

Regards, Timelord.