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DTTP. Obviously you can do basic maths then. Yes it is hypothetical discussion as stated in the post - as is a lot of stuff we talk about as it has not happened or been built yet. Historical data tends not to be hypothetical unless biast by its recorder. There is nothing technically hypothetical - the engineering side of it is already out there - for many decades. How old is the semi auto long gun design? As for the maths, then did you think I did not know that 5 was less than 9? I can also work out that 5 is more than 1.
Bigger is better!...
That idea does not work for many instances. 12gauge for hunting small game can result in - a mess. If a .410 calibre bullet is not adequate compared to a large 12gauge ("slug") type bullet for defence, then maybe we should rethink most personal combat firearms already in circulation. 21grain 12 gauge shells are not in any way as compact or lightweight as .410 shells.
The ability of licence holders to hold 1000 12g shells is a wayward point, as they could not conceivably hold or carry that many personally. 250 would be a heavy bulky lot and that would have to be carried in a backpack.
The 12 gauge is not "twice as powerful" as a .410.. How exactly do you define "Powerful"? Do you realise that while the charge is smaller, the chamber pressures in a .410 can exceed that of a 12 gauge due to the smaller chamber size and its elongated proportions compared to that of the 12 gauge? Where do you get your ballistic data from?
At 10 metres does it matter whether a shot shell fires 5 or 9 x00 buck balls to any great detriment if you take into account the design purpose of the gun? It is still 4 more (approx 8.4mm)projectiles than a single projectile gun at close quarters self defence distances. If you want more lead on target and more power to launch it, then you can always upscale again from the 12gauge and go for something really big. Where does it end? The tool should be designed for the job intended and the best usually are. Big hammers, small hammers and even bigger hammers.
My post was not all about the .410 versus the 12 gauge (that old chestnut..), it was a consideration of a versatile all round and economical to run survival type gun that could be put together if someone wished. (and could also be run on black powder or equivalent expedient propellants if in pump configuration)
Put it this way, in the UK, the only semi auto weapons (Assault rifle type genre) that can be owned on a license are .22 rimfire and shotgun (mostly section 1), of which the 12 gauge and 20 gauge predominate. Now we know the often quoted drawbacks of these two calibres of shotgun and also the weedy ammo ability of the .22 rimfire. Take the good points and versatility of each of those weapon types and attempt to minimize the disadvantages of each and that might put you somewhere around the configuration of gun I am suggesting - a compromise? - well maybe and maybe not so much for its intended purpose?..
Now obviously there is no way I would fire bullets from it as that would make it illegal in the UK and is the type of gun that in the USA the anti gun lobby is trying to ban, ie, the "semi-auto assault rifle" - which is actually a carbine of only 5.56mm. However, for the .410 proposed configuration being smoothbore and firing slugs through it in the UK under section 1 licence, it would be perfectly legal for PSG competition in semi auto mode - nice and lightweight too with plenty of spare ammo able to be carried and with the ability to convert to shot or other exotic loads. Do you get the picture? Umm, sounds interesting!
Safe journeys, TL
(the amount of 12g shells in circulation is not as relevant as you think for PSHTF and has been mentioned already in this thread, as has the cost of 12g shells versus .410 shells, as again that will not be as applicable PSHTF. Buy now cheap from SIARM - as written earlier -again)
These posts could do with moving to their own thread.
OK, not all semi auto assault rifles are the NATO 5.56mm, but you get the point. :-)
Bigger is better!...
That idea does not work for many instances. 12gauge for hunting small game can result in - a mess. If a .410 calibre bullet is not adequate compared to a large 12gauge ("slug") type bullet for defence, then maybe we should rethink most personal combat firearms already in circulation. 21grain 12 gauge shells are not in any way as compact or lightweight as .410 shells.
The ability of licence holders to hold 1000 12g shells is a wayward point, as they could not conceivably hold or carry that many personally. 250 would be a heavy bulky lot and that would have to be carried in a backpack.
The 12 gauge is not "twice as powerful" as a .410.. How exactly do you define "Powerful"? Do you realise that while the charge is smaller, the chamber pressures in a .410 can exceed that of a 12 gauge due to the smaller chamber size and its elongated proportions compared to that of the 12 gauge? Where do you get your ballistic data from?
At 10 metres does it matter whether a shot shell fires 5 or 9 x00 buck balls to any great detriment if you take into account the design purpose of the gun? It is still 4 more (approx 8.4mm)projectiles than a single projectile gun at close quarters self defence distances. If you want more lead on target and more power to launch it, then you can always upscale again from the 12gauge and go for something really big. Where does it end? The tool should be designed for the job intended and the best usually are. Big hammers, small hammers and even bigger hammers.
My post was not all about the .410 versus the 12 gauge (that old chestnut..), it was a consideration of a versatile all round and economical to run survival type gun that could be put together if someone wished. (and could also be run on black powder or equivalent expedient propellants if in pump configuration)
Put it this way, in the UK, the only semi auto weapons (Assault rifle type genre) that can be owned on a license are .22 rimfire and shotgun (mostly section 1), of which the 12 gauge and 20 gauge predominate. Now we know the often quoted drawbacks of these two calibres of shotgun and also the weedy ammo ability of the .22 rimfire. Take the good points and versatility of each of those weapon types and attempt to minimize the disadvantages of each and that might put you somewhere around the configuration of gun I am suggesting - a compromise? - well maybe and maybe not so much for its intended purpose?..
Now obviously there is no way I would fire bullets from it as that would make it illegal in the UK and is the type of gun that in the USA the anti gun lobby is trying to ban, ie, the "semi-auto assault rifle" - which is actually a carbine of only 5.56mm. However, for the .410 proposed configuration being smoothbore and firing slugs through it in the UK under section 1 licence, it would be perfectly legal for PSG competition in semi auto mode - nice and lightweight too with plenty of spare ammo able to be carried and with the ability to convert to shot or other exotic loads. Do you get the picture? Umm, sounds interesting!
Safe journeys, TL
(the amount of 12g shells in circulation is not as relevant as you think for PSHTF and has been mentioned already in this thread, as has the cost of 12g shells versus .410 shells, as again that will not be as applicable PSHTF. Buy now cheap from SIARM - as written earlier -again)
These posts could do with moving to their own thread.
OK, not all semi auto assault rifles are the NATO 5.56mm, but you get the point. :-)
"How far back in time do you think our future will be?"