Defence

[Scythe13]

If I saw a house that was well defended and had archery stuff around I wouldn't attack it directly. I would put it under surveillance for a while and plan an attack. You are more likely to enter a house that appears empty whilst out exploring.

Oddly enough, I'd actually disagree with that. But only considering the situation. If my kids were starving, and there were other houses around, I'm not going to stake out a house for a couple of days. I'd go elsewhere and get some food. Pop round the neighbours or something.

If it wasn't a case of starving to death, I would stake out and observe the house. But in all fairness, we're looking at a situation where people probably won't have enough time to stake out a house.

[HunterNurturer]

as far as doors and windows are concerned, you could always put in a secondary METAL door behind the original-i think some drug gangs do this, you can beef up the window locks but they'll break the glass anyway, unlike burglars looters dont mind how much noise they make, i suppose you could fit metal bars but would that make your neighbours suspicious? there is always thorny bushes and the like but a serious invader would probably just ignore the scratches and thorns. the best thing you can have is a BOL- better still have 4, 1 at all points of the compass just incase your way is barred to your principal one. map and walk the route to your BOL so you can get there anytime day or night.

I once saw a "police camera action" style show that had cops trying to break down the door of some drug den. After a while of their battering ram failing to do the job (and screwing up their whole element of surprise raid), they realised that the owner had wedged a large 2x4 between the front door and the stairs behind it.

Even once they realised what was going on and they had to start targetting the edges of the door, it took a good few hits with the specialist device to force entry, and frankly they looked a bit silly when they got in and this super basic defense had kept them out for so long.

It seems to be something they encounter frequently too, they even had a nickname for it that I'm desperately trying to remember. Something like "dutch barricade"?

[Skean Dhude]

There is a protective device called a birmingham bar which offers protection from invaders.

[Tibbs735]

[Skvez]

I think huge *organised* groups of looters are unlikely. (You might be unfortunate enough to encounter a former army Platoon but I think it's improbable)

Scavengers tend to follow each other about and may appear as a large mob but they will have little or no leadership or structure.

The better you're armed the more likely you are to be able to dissuade them from entering your home to search it. However if they are convinced you have what they need (food if they're starving) then you're in trouble.

If you have to flee from a scenario like this the mob will probably be more interested in what you've left behind than in following you but just in case grab a can of food (in addition to your BOB) and run with it in your hand. If you're being followed after a short distance drop the can, there is a good chance that the first person following you will stop for the can and a good chance that the second person following you will stop when they get to the first person to see if they can take the can or share the can.
Additional followers (if any) will spend more time looking for things you may drop and less time concentrating on the terrain so you have a better chance to get clear.

[Paul]

Being part of a drifting mass is sometimes a good idea.
Safety in numbers and almost automatic admission to camps and food stations.
Just as long as you look as pathetic as the next guy.
Refugee columns I've seen all walk tired, dirty, and looking at their feet.

If you are armed, look fit, or well equipped, it draws attention.
Especially at food stations or camp entrances.

As for food?
Large camp hygeine really sucks as does communial eating, washing, and drinking water.
You should always split away from the masses to feed, sleep, toilet and wash.
Remember, refugee camps aren't full of peace loving souls and are usually violent.
Add a bit of food shortage and feeding stations aren't for the weak either.

Tibbs735. You said "You want a large tribe of ideally 20-25 fighters."
Street thugs, mercs, or just untrained civiilians?

If you're in charge of street thugs you've got to make it worth their while to follow your orders. The second you don't reward them for their efforts or even try to punish one, you'll have drawn an imaginary target on your back. Their loyalty will be for as long as the reward is good, the alcohol and woman plentiful.

If everything collapses, even trained the military might go their own way.
They will probably retain their group leadership though.
They definitely won't respect non military leadership lording over them.
As for their loyalty to you? Only for them they know and those they respect.
To keep them on you'll have to pay them in Merc reward i.e. best food, drink, and of course women.

Untrained civilians in a large group toting guns?
Without training or knowledgable strong leadership, they'll be close to the bottom of the food chain.
The bigger the group the more chance of social or status divisions and the inevitable ruling class.
If the world fell apart because of "management", you'll soon be tarred with that title and the possible contempt and consequences that entails.

IMHO, the smaller the group the better.
Mixed is best. Both sexes can stand guard and some of the best snipers I've known are women.
A balanced mixed tight group will usually 'gel' especially if there are a few kids.
Most small units readily adopt a loyalty to each other and the group.

[bigpaul]

the only group i'm going to want to be part of would be family or friends i have known for a LONG time(like my mates i have known for 30+ years), people i know i can trust. me be part of a group with complete strangers? no way Jose..i would be too scared to sleep at night in case someone decided to knife me...i'd rather go lone wolf.

[Tibbs735]

Being part of a drifting mass is sometimes a good idea.
Safety in numbers and almost automatic admission to camps and food stations.
Just as long as you look as pathetic as the next guy.
Refugee columns I've seen all walk tired, dirty, and looking at their feet.

If you are armed, look fit, or well equipped, it draws attention.
Especially at food stations or camp entrances.

As for food?
Large camp hygeine really sucks as does communial eating, washing, and drinking water.
You should always split away from the masses to feed, sleep, toilet and wash.
Remember, refugee camps aren't full of peace loving souls and are usually violent.
Add a bit of food shortage and feeding stations aren't for the weak either.

Tibbs735. You said "You want a large tribe of ideally 20-25 fighters."
Street thugs, mercs, or just untrained civiilians?

If you're in charge of street thugs you've got to make it worth their while to follow your orders. The second you don't reward them for their efforts or even try to punish one, you'll have drawn an imaginary target on your back. Their loyalty will be for as long as the reward is good, the alcohol and woman plentiful.

If everything collapses, even trained the military might go their own way.
They will probably retain their group leadership though.
They definitely won't respect non military leadership lording over them.
As for their loyalty to you? Only for them they know and those they respect.
To keep them on you'll have to pay them in Merc reward i.e. best food, drink, and of course women.

Untrained civilians in a large group toting guns?
Without training or knowledgable strong leadership, they'll be close to the bottom of the food chain.
The bigger the group the more chance of social or status divisions and the inevitable ruling class.
If the world fell apart because of "management", you'll soon be tarred with that title and the possible contempt and consequences that entails.

IMHO, the smaller the group the better.
Mixed is best. Both sexes can stand guard and some of the best snipers I've known are women.
A balanced mixed tight group will usually 'gel' especially if there are a few kids.
Most small units readily adopt a loyalty to each other and the group.

When I said 25 fighters, I meant people you have known before, as part of a group formed before SHTF, or as close as you can get. By having 25 adults you can also maintain sentries 24 hours a day without getting exhausted as well as farming effectively. This allows for specialization with the group. As well as everyone being trained on fighting, contact drills, survival skills, first aid etc, you could also have a medically trained person, or a skilled blacksmith etc who can pass on those skills

[bigpaul]

Being part of a drifting mass is sometimes a good idea.
Safety in numbers and almost automatic admission to camps and food stations.
Just as long as you look as pathetic as the next guy.
Refugee columns I've seen all walk tired, dirty, and looking at their feet.

If you are armed, look fit, or well equipped, it draws attention.
Especially at food stations or camp entrances.

As for food?
Large camp hygeine really sucks as does communial eating, washing, and drinking water.
You should always split away from the masses to feed, sleep, toilet and wash.
Remember, refugee camps aren't full of peace loving souls and are usually violent.
Add a bit of food shortage and feeding stations aren't for the weak either.

Tibbs735. You said "You want a large tribe of ideally 20-25 fighters."
Street thugs, mercs, or just untrained civiilians?

If you're in charge of street thugs you've got to make it worth their while to follow your orders. The second you don't reward them for their efforts or even try to punish one, you'll have drawn an imaginary target on your back. Their loyalty will be for as long as the reward is good, the alcohol and woman plentiful.

If everything collapses, even trained the military might go their own way.
They will probably retain their group leadership though.
They definitely won't respect non military leadership lording over them.
As for their loyalty to you? Only for them they know and those they respect.
To keep them on you'll have to pay them in Merc reward i.e. best food, drink, and of course women.

Untrained civilians in a large group toting guns?
Without training or knowledgable strong leadership, they'll be close to the bottom of the food chain.
The bigger the group the more chance of social or status divisions and the inevitable ruling class.
If the world fell apart because of "management", you'll soon be tarred with that title and the possible contempt and consequences that entails.

IMHO, the smaller the group the better.
Mixed is best. Both sexes can stand guard and some of the best snipers I've known are women.
A balanced mixed tight group will usually 'gel' especially if there are a few kids.
Most small units readily adopt a loyalty to each other and the group.

When I said 25 fighters, I meant people you have known before, as part of a group formed before SHTF, or as close as you can get. By having 25 adults you can also maintain sentries 24 hours a day without getting exhausted as well as farming effectively. This allows for specialization with the group. As well as everyone being trained on fighting, contact drills, survival skills, first aid etc, you could also have a medically trained person, or a skilled blacksmith etc who can pass on those skills

great idea Tibbs, unfortunately it'll never work, i dont know 25 people let alone 25 i could trust, i think its more like 5 not 25, for that large a group you are going to need a large "retreat" to house them all, somewhere not only with the accomodation, kitchens, Toilets for 25 people? also with the land for animals and growing and still be defendable and hidden away from the hordes??

[Skvez]

I'm going to go "lone wolf".
But even if I knew 25 people that I trusted it's unlikley that they would all get along with each other.
I think you'd be safer from external threats in a group that size but I think internal issues are almost inevitable.
Internal issues including:
Someone not pulling their weight
Someone stealing food (or worse)
Someone can't keep OPSEC
Someone "wasting" irreplaceable resources faster than you think is appropriate
Someone cracking up under the strain

You're very fortunate if you have a group of 25 that can keep it together.