The Single-Barrel, Break-Open Shotgun

[Mortblanc]

(23 November 2013, 11:33)Tartar Horde Wrote: Being able to cast Ball and Minnie bullets from lead has got to be simpler than making cartridges/shells for modern Guns hasn't it? and lead is pretty common, so is there a place for gunpowder weapons, if only from the standpoint of being more "self sufficient"?
Do any of you folks have direct experience of them and what are your thoughts.

I have 6-8 flintlock rifles and about the same in caplock long guns, 5-6 pistols of both flint and cap persuasion and several cap and ball revolvers in .36 and .44 caliber.

I build then as a hobby to keep my mind occupied during the long winter months. I have two in process at the moment. I work from scratch and not from those cheap prebuilt kits. Some of my projects take a year to complete.

The principles are the same with Muzzle loading as with cartridge loading. You put powder and lead in a container and fire it with a cap.

When using ML guns you do this process on the spot, using the barrel as the container, as the shots are fired.

With cartridge guns you do it somewhere else and bring the loaded rounds with you.

Cartridges make stressful situations easier to deal with. One places the shell into the weapon by whatever means is dictated, single shot or repeater, and the gun goes boom. All the thinking was done at home.

If your situations are not stressful then Muzzle loading will often work. You can wipe out the bore, pour down a measure of powder, wrap the ball with a patch and force it down the bore, then cap the weapon, take aim and fire. (the process takes about a minute) It requires thought, planning, dexterity and time.

The development of cartridge firing weapons changed history, changed individual and small unit tactics along with warfare on the national scale.

It also changed hunting. Cartridges are less influenced by weather, generally more reliable in firing and much faster for the shooting. Some of the hunting parties in England included the killing of thousands of birds each day after cartridge guns were perfected.

I am not saying that muzzle loading guns do not have a place in the inventory of long term survival tools, simply that they have limitations and one must accept that.

No hunting in the rain, no fast repeat shots, no reloading with the brain turned off.

Shooting a couple of squirrels in the back field, I would just as soon use one of my muzzle loaders. Facing a big critter, multiple critters or dangerous critters, I want my cartridge guns.

HOWEVER!!!

If I lived in GB and did not have access to a cartridge gun, or access to cartridges, I could build a muzzle loading gun and have ammunition for that gun within two hours from the word "GO", made from supplies out of the kitchen, the workroom and local shops!

If I had a cartridge it would take me about 1/2 hour.

IF you folks can have cartridges in your possession legally, even if you do not have a SGC, there needs to be some shell distribution going on between friends at your meet ups and information and instruction links from the internet shared.

Not to break any laws, simply to have the ability, knowledge and information available in case the presence of any law evaporates or becomes moot.

Knowing how to do something is not a crime, no matter what the social order tries to convince one.

I know how to rob a bank.
I have the capability of robbing a bank.

I have never robbed a bank.
I do not intend to rob bank.

So far I can not be sent to prison based on the fact that I have compared the banks in my area and contemplated the difficulty level of the various institutions and the tactics that would be needed.

[Midnitemo]

been and bought a lee 7/8 oz slug mould today and a cast iron folding pouring ladle....guess what i'll be casting on nights this week?

[Mortblanc]

(23 November 2013, 17:35)Midnitemo Wrote: been and bought a lee 7/8 oz slug mould today and a cast iron folding pouring ladle....guess what i'll be casting on nights this week?

I find that is best done outside with good ventilation.

Before I bought my electric lead melter I used a cast iron pot on a Coleman gas camp stove on the tailgate of my pickup.

I have also melted lead in a big iron ladle using a propane torch for small runs.

And I have seen it done in a little iron skillet over the coals of a campfire.

Be careful with those Lee molds, they damage easily. do not smack them with anything to dislodge the slug and do not attempt to pry slugs out of the mold.

They are still a good product and I own a bunch in various calibers.

They need a bit of lubrication at the indexing points and a bit at the sprue plate hinge.

They also drop the finished slug better if you smoke coat the inside of the blocks with a sooty flame before you start casting. The carbon works as a release agent.

If one removes the shot from a 1 1/8 oz birdshot load and replaces it with the 7/8oz slug the projectile speed will increase from the 1200fps of the shot load to around 1400fps for the lighter slug. It will take down any deer, dog or dinosaur in GB that manages to get within 50 meters of you.

Here in the states we have several heavily populated zones that allow only the use of shotguns with slugs, due to safety concerns, for hunting large game. Oddly enough, the national record stags are usually taken from those "shotgun only" areas each year.

This situation has also sparked a good deal of intense research on shotgun modifications for extracting maximum potential from the lowly shotgun slug.

Some of us have come to value our shotguns as a single projectile shooter as much or more than as a small game and wing-shooting gun. Scope sighted shotguns being targeted off the shooting bench from sandbags is a common sight in my part of the woods.

[Midnitemo]

Mort...i know you're supposed to use pure lead to cast slugs , do you agree with this or do you think melting lead shot to re cast is ok ? i was considering doing a 50/50 mix , then the antimony should only be about 2%

[CharlesHarris]

As long as the as- cast slug is of small enough diameter to fall through the choke a dout the muzzle, when dropped into the opened breech, a somewhat harder alloy does no harm.A curacy may be affected somewhat if the slug is a very loose fit, but if a harder slug is too large to pass through the choked portion, it doesnot squeeze down as readily as a soft one of pure lead, and you may burst the barrel.

Years ago I did this by firing. 44-40 cartridges in a .410/12mm shotgun. Soft lead bullet factory loads shot pretty well, but one day a jacketed softpoint cartridge found its way into my coat pocket and the muzzle of the gun split open and spread like the hood of a cobra! cut off the barrel behind the split, and now have a handy 18" cylinder bore "snake gun" which throws skeet patterns. The bore slugs an even .424" for its entire bore length beyond the forcing cone and round balls will stay on a bucket at 25 metres and penetrate 5cm of soft pine.

[Midnitemo]

my pump gun is a 24 inch slug barrel so not a problem then , but i have a fixed choke baikal side by side , 1/2 & 3/4 choke at the moment but am considering opening it out to 1/4&1/2 or going the whole hog and getting the barrels chopped to min length(24 inches) and going cyl&cyl sort of like an old coach gun , anybody know if it will have to be reproofed after shortening?

[Stevew]

lee slugs should go through full choke no problem! but too make sure just slide one down your barrel if it fits through the end no problem.

[Talon]

(23 November 2013, 21:51)Midnitemo Wrote: my pump gun is a 24 inch slug barrel so not a problem then , but i have a fixed choke baikal side by side , 1/2 & 3/4 choke at the moment but am considering opening it out to 1/4&1/2 or going the whole hog and getting the barrels chopped to min length(24 inches) and going cyl&cyl sort of like an old coach gun , anybody know if it will have to be reproofed after shortening?

Legally speaking you will only need to reproof if you want to sell the gun ,also I would cut it to 24 1/2 just to make sure you have some breathing room when the FLO comes round the next time you need to re apply for a new certificate.

[Mortblanc]

If you expect accuracy from a slug the very last thing you want is for the projectile to "fall thorough the bore".

The need for a loose slug is an internet myth. Slugs are expected to be fired from any choke constriction except the "super full" turkey and coyote chokes.

Slugs are supposed to compress as they travel the bore. It is expected. It is INTENDED!

Cast lead bullets that are fired at much higher velocities through rifle barrels are NOT sized below bore diameter. They are Sized at .001" OVER BORE DIAMETER.

Shotgun slugs are hollow for most of their body mass. They are designed to expand on firing, then squeeze through the choke as they exit. They are still being made as they were back when almost every shotgun came with a full choke and "the fuller the better" was the rule of the day.

Charles Harris problem almost assuredly came from firing a copper jacketed bullet through his .410 bore shotgun. He was firing a .429 diameter jacketed bullet through a .410 bore and the lead core squeezed from the copper jacket, which remained in the barrel. The next shot split the barrel like peeling a banana due to the obstruction in the bore. IT HAS NO BEARING ON OUR DISCUSSION.

I have fired slugs through every choke constriction on purpose just to find out how much variation in accuracy there was between my screw in chokes.

If one cuts down their shotgun barrels there is not a need to "proof" the barrels again. Why would there be? You are working on the muzzle, not the breech.

I have cut down more than 100 barrels in my time and never had one blow up. Fact is there were a couple that I cut because they had blown up!

However, if I had a good double I would not cut it unless there was another factor involved.

I have one double gun I cut down for shooting skeet (cyl/cyl) back before screw in chokes had been developed. I have regretted cutting that gun down for 30 years.

I consider modern screw in chokes the frosting on the shotgun cake.

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My 12ga ball mold, and most slug molds, cast a .69 caliber projectile. Most 12ga bores mike out at .730 and do not approach the .69 caliber mark until they reach modified (3/4) choke.

[Talon]

Mort I've read that the lead balancing weights off wheels are a good source of cheap casting lead.Would they be ok for a .69 ball or would they be classed as too hard ?.I assume they will work fine even in a tighter choke,but I would like your opinion.