Capitalism and Socialism, explain please

[Barneyboy]

(10 September 2012, 21:19)Hrusai Wrote:

(10 September 2012, 21:14)Barneyboy Wrote: but with out the welfare the crime gos up 10 fold so wots the answer

there isnt a clear cut answer mate, lots of theoretical ideas and such...i dont think theres an easy way to sort the world out as it is, maybe after teotwawki we can rebuild in a perfect way (personally i have my own ideas of a perfect society) but i dont think we can really make any radical changes to our society as is

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but i think everything boils down to not just a system, but down to beliefs, cultural ideas, heritage and all these other things that come together to form the basis of each of us, after all we have our opinions and suchlike and certain ideas, most of which are instilled by society, just like our language is

lol getting into this will end up in some very lengthy discussions about everything i think so im going to stop now before i start talking about the history of everything xD

you should see the prisons in that place pal wot a shit hole but they still commit crime i dont no maybe a shoot in the head will be kinder

[Hrusai]

(10 September 2012, 21:34)Barneyboy Wrote: you should see the prisons in that place pal wot a shit hole but they still commit crime i dont no maybe a shoot in the head will be kinder

i dont like the idea of prisons full stop, i think most crimes should simply be punished by your community turning its back on you, if its so severe that it warrants placement in a prison to protect the community, then you should be killed, moderate crimes would be met with banishment, and small things like nickin smoething from a shop would just end up with everyone knowing what you did and steering clear, giving you a really crappy few weeks...but in order to achieve a decent punishment system you'd need to essentially have a new sort of society etc

in my opinions anyway lol

[IB1]

You could share out all the worlds money equally today and by tomorrow a lot of people will be skint and another lot of people will have doubled their money and then the same arguments would start again.

The only thing for certain is that what ever system is in place, people at the top will still be shitting on people at the bottom

[Hrusai]

(10 September 2012, 21:39)IB1 Wrote: You could share out all the worlds money equally today and by tomorrow a lot of people will be skint and another lot of people will have doubled their money and then the same arguments would start again.

The only thing for certain is that what ever system is in place, people at the top will still be shitting on people at the bottom

good point dude, we always revert to a hierachical model in our societies, its part of nature as humans!

[Tibbs735]

We are not in a capitalist system atm. What we are experiencing is "Crony Capitalism." There are no bailouts in real capitalism, if you go under, others take your place, in a Darwinian fashion.
I personally don't mind paying taxes for things like roads, infrastructure, healthcare etc, because I use those. But I accept they are not my "right" and that I am lucky to have any of them. I do not like the idea of my money being used for wars, missiles, bailouts, luxury for politicians etc, but I can't really do anything about that.
I would like for most of the power that government holds to be given to small local government. The larger amount of power a position holds, the greater the attraction it is to monsters who would abuse it.

[Hrusai]

(10 September 2012, 22:10)Tibbs735 Wrote: We are not in a capitalist system atm. What we are experiencing is "Crony Capitalism." There are no bailouts in real capitalism, if you go under, others take your place, in a Darwinian fashion.

not sure i really agree mate, in our hyper connected world, a few companies or countries going down drag all the rest with them, therefore its in a well connected companies interest to preserve the other companies it has ties with, even if that means bailing them out for instance theres a core group of hyper connected companies about 1200 of them total that control something like 95% of the wealth of the world, with a further 140 being the main players in this group, if any 1 of those 140 companies crashes the entire economic system would collapse, and thats in no ones interest is it?

[Skean Dhude]

Hrusai,

Not true. A collaping company sells off its assets to the highest bidder and it continues that way shedding itself of a failed team. Bailouts mean nobody learns, nobody is punished and is clearly a socilaist ideology.

[Skvez]

(10 September 2012, 21:14)Barneyboy Wrote: But without the welfare the crime goes up 10 fold so what's the answer?

Coming off any addiction cold turkey has painful withdrawl symptoms.
Ideally you don't get adicted in the first place but if you have to come off ramping down is the least painful solution.
Welfare money is an addiction.

[00111001]

(10 September 2012, 20:42)Barneyboy Wrote: is there a happy middle

ANARCHY

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(10 September 2012, 21:14)Barneyboy Wrote: but with out the welfare the crime gos up 10 fold so wots the answer

Realistic self defence laws and forced labour camps for those unwilling to work.

Hitler had the right idea. Probably not the best implementation, but the idea was valid.

[Tigs]

Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production. This stretches the line between the rich and the poor, creating class struggles and inequality. Socialism is a more mixed economy where people are more equal and have workplace benefits. The United States is capitalist, for example, and Norway is socialist

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how to explain the worlds economies

Socialism:
You have two cows. You give one to your neighbor.

Communism:
You have two cows. The State takes both and gives you some milk.

Fascism:
You have two cows. The State takes both then sells you some milk.

Nazism:
You have two cows. The States takes both and shoots you.

Bureaucratism:
You have two cows. The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.

Traditional Capitalism:
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Your herd multiplies and the economy grows. You sell them and retire on the income.

Surrealism:
You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

American Corporation:
You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. Later, you hire a consultant to analyze why the cow has dropped dead.

Enron Venture Capitalism:
You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows. The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company. The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. You sell one cow to buy a new President of the United States, leaving you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with the release. The public then buys your bull.

French Corporation:
You have two cows. You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.

Japanese Corporation:
You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. You then create a clever cow cartoon image called "Cowkimon" and market it worldwide.

German Corporation:
You have two cows. You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

Italian Corporation:
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are. You decide to have lunch.

Russian Corporation:
You have two cows. You count them and learn you have five cows. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again and learn you have 2 cows. You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

Swiss Corporation:
You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you. You charge the owners for storing them.

Chinese Corporation:
You have two cows. You have 300 people milking them. You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity. You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

Indian Corporation:
You have two cows. You worship them.

British Corporation:
You have two cows. Both are mad.

Iraqi Corporation:
Everyone thinks you have lots of cows. You tell them that you have none. No-one believes you, so they bomb the crap out of you and invade your country. You still have no cows, but at least now you are part of a Democracy.

Australian Corporation:
You have two cows. Business seems pretty good. You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

New Zealand Corporation:
You have two cows. The one on the left looks very attractive.