what to carry

[Tonka]

(18 April 2013, 19:46)I-K-E Wrote: I'm working on the principle of not looking for a fight ..... if I did I'm guessing I wouldn't last to long

even firing then getting out of the way means you got a new enemy and if the SHTF we'll all be to busy trying to survive and you want to minimise any unnecessary conflict

hell you may even find someone to help out and possible a new friend after a while

WOW there is someone else on this forum who dosn't think everyone else apart their spouse immediately becomes the ememy when TSHTF ... or already is the enemy!

[Timelord]

Hello BP. I hope all is ok at your end..
The review is on the merits and de-merits in a PSHTF scenario. More specifically the one asked earlier in the thread, as is often asked by preppers. Military actions are not effectively comparable. Fighting a war or a battle or guerrilla warfare is not the subject in question.
The question is generally what is the most effective weapon to carry in a prepper given scenario. Usually on ones own or small family units.... The think first/knowledge part of the equation requires one to consider what actually do I wish to be able to achieve with any particular weapon? Hunting requirements differ from Self Defence. Some weapons can perform either task to varying degrees but may have other drawbacks. Many weapons are only any good in one type of scenario.
The original thread quested after a single weapon that would be ideal for a prepper across differing scenarios.
The reality is that everyone's situation will be different. If we are to say it has to be a projectile weapon that can effectively cross all avenues, then it is a tough one!

There are many other weapons that can be reviewed and I only reviewed some of them for the above scenario before falling asleep.
I believe that crossbows are excellent in the right circumstance and bows have a long admirable heritage that makes them an effective and versatile and useful tool - in the right circumstances.... What is requested is for a projectile weapon that is effective from close quarter indoor environments to outdoor hunting. Not many fit the bill.
I suspect this will be a never ending Holy Grail, which is why I attempted to provide a listing of comparable pro's & con's for each weapon type, so the enquirer can match up their own individual requirements.

Having (and being able to use, maintain etc) any one of these weapon types is a great asset for continued survival and in no way is a low score suggesting that the weapon is useless. The scores relate to the complex scenario question put forward.
What is needed is an understanding of firstly what is the objective which will probably mean intimidation as a deterrence or failing that actual stopping power in a threat encounter - as anything less than a one shot fight stopping or debilitating injury to the aggressor is not satisfactory and potentially the end for oneself! Multiple adversaries complicate the issue even further and many weapons can not handle this situation.
Next is the choice of ammunition that will achieve this. This is actually a very busy subject and is probably initially more important than the weapon itself. The weapon is after all just a projectile delivery system. What is needed for a one shot stop, is a projectile that causes significant damage that result in incapacitation or a projectile that dumps most of its energy into a victim without exiting from the rear with only very localised damage. Even a weighty projectile that comes to rest lodged fast and sticking out of the adversary quite a distance will cause considerable pain and will severely hamper the adversaries progress.
Next the Delivery system or weapon needs to possess desirable characteristics of performance, accuracy, reliability, ruggedness, maintainability and other desirable traits. This third core subject is important to get in its right context. eg, a prepper on his lonesome or of limited small numbers in a PSHTF scenario is in no way going to be in the same situation as a military unit operating in peace or war time. This means that military hardware, designed and constructed en masse and available by organised resupply to military units, is not necessarily a good option for the prepper. This is very important to take on board, as what may appear good now or on utube reviews is not necessarily going to be much use PSHTF when spares or replacements or ammo are not forthcoming, possibly for any foreseeable future - then the weapon & ammo choice needs to be considered very carefully. This is one area where more primitive technology like bows could score well, but in the initial PSHTF scenario then this advantage is not yet apparent. Knowledge of their use & construction would be an excellent skill to have on standby.

Lastly - Skill, there needs to be some and some weapons take significantly more skill and hence practice to become proficient at. Therefore this is a serious consideration before taking up any one choice.

Not reviewed as yet is a lever action 308 Winchester style carbine. these have some excellent all round capabilities - BUT restocking of Ammo PSHTF would be a big problem - unless you were able to access your own previously stored supplies. Reloading on the trail is doable if the right bullet mod and powder is available - even expedient powders and salvaged lead - as per the shotgun is possible - but the bullet mold is crucial to have already. Luckily these are small affairs and could be carried. Accuracy and a good skill level will be needed to gain the benefits of this weapon type. Also licence requirements now are a problem for many. Cost and practice are others. The usual bout of pro's & cons....

The "not looking for a fight" option is the best. I understand the request for an all encompassing weapon type to be attempting to identify suitable tools to help achieve this and if "not looking for a fight" does not work, then the tool or weapon needs to do the job effectively. It also needs to be useful for hunting as the thread implied. If you take one or the other criteria away, then the positive & negatives change considerably, which equals different choices or options. This review was for one weapon across the board.

As for those who do not have access or do not wish to aquire access to legal firearms, then the choices would be different. A review system for non firearms would be useful. It will still however be important to understand the strengths and weaknesses of all weapons likely to be encountered or that one may possibly aquire PSHTF. A high score in a non firearm review chart will not usually equate across at the same level on to a fire arms review table. Maybe 2 separate review listings and then an amalgamated and re-sorted listing would be useful for an individuals full analysis.
Tartar Hoard puts across well the way an understanding of his weapons abilities will mean a different response to varying scenarios.

There is one more point that should be looked into by any serious prepper, especially if without present access to firearms (That is now - before SHTF) and that is that an expedient shotgun is very simple to make and considerably easier than a bow or many other projectile weapons. The info is all out there, from "slam fire" Paltic shotguns, used by Phillipino Guerilla fighters against the Japanese in WW2. The CIA even supplied manuals on "how to" to various guerrilla fighters against Communism in the Mid 20th Century. All this info is "old hat" now and available online somewhere. Obviously physically completing the manufacture of any firearm at the moment is illegal and I do not advise or condone that. The knowledge is key and the materials are readily available.
Also some prior knowledge of firearms and their operation may well be useful for PSHTF, even if you do not go down the hobby/licencing/owning/practical route.

Just remember that in a country where all gun ownership is banned, then only the state henchmen and the criminals have guns! This will apply PSHTF, especially if there has been a gun grab first. There are thousands of illegal guns in major cities alone. Don't get caught with your pants down and lots of untested theories in your head.. LOL, TL.

[Highlander]

(19 April 2013, 00:57)Timelord Wrote: Just remember that in a country where all gun ownership is banned, then only the state henchmen and the criminals have guns! This will apply PSHTF, especially if there has been a gun grab first. There are thousands of illegal guns in major cities alone. Don't get caught with your pants down and lots of untested theories in your head.. LOL, TL.

Good post,.......... but what country are you talking about?, surely not the UK, the last paragraph above is completely wrong if you are, there are many thousands of legal firearms both of the shotgun and the FAC type

[bigpaul]

(19 April 2013, 00:57)Timelord Wrote: Hello BP. I hope all is ok at your end..
The review is on the merits and de-merits in a PSHTF scenario. More specifically the one asked earlier in the thread, as is often asked by preppers. Military actions are not effectively comparable. Fighting a war or a battle or guerrilla warfare is not the subject in question.
The question is generally what is the most effective weapon to carry in a prepper given scenario. Usually on ones own or small family units.... The think first/knowledge part of the equation requires one to consider what actually do I wish to be able to achieve with any particular weapon? Hunting requirements differ from Self Defence. Some weapons can perform either task to varying degrees but may have other drawbacks. Many weapons are only any good in one type of scenario.
The original thread quested after a single weapon that would be ideal for a prepper across differing scenarios.
The reality is that everyone's situation will be different. If we are to say it has to be a projectile weapon that can effectively cross all avenues, then it is a tough one!

There are many other weapons that can be reviewed and I only reviewed some of them for the above scenario before falling asleep.
I believe that crossbows are excellent in the right circumstance and bows have a long admirable heritage that makes them an effective and versatile and useful tool - in the right circumstances.... What is requested is for a projectile weapon that is effective from close quarter indoor environments to outdoor hunting. Not many fit the bill.
I suspect this will be a never ending Holy Grail, which is why I attempted to provide a listing of comparable pro's & con's for each weapon type, so the enquirer can match up their own individual requirements.

Having (and being able to use, maintain etc) any one of these weapon types is a great asset for continued survival and in no way is a low score suggesting that the weapon is useless. The scores relate to the complex scenario question put forward.
What is needed is an understanding of firstly what is the objective which will probably mean intimidation as a deterrence or failing that actual stopping power in a threat encounter - as anything less than a one shot fight stopping or debilitating injury to the aggressor is not satisfactory and potentially the end for oneself! Multiple adversaries complicate the issue even further and many weapons can not handle this situation.
Next is the choice of ammunition that will achieve this. This is actually a very busy subject and is probably initially more important than the weapon itself. The weapon is after all just a projectile delivery system. What is needed for a one shot stop, is a projectile that causes significant damage that result in incapacitation or a projectile that dumps most of its energy into a victim without exiting from the rear with only very localised damage. Even a weighty projectile that comes to rest lodged fast and sticking out of the adversary quite a distance will cause considerable pain and will severely hamper the adversaries progress.
Next the Delivery system or weapon needs to possess desirable characteristics of performance, accuracy, reliability, ruggedness, maintainability and other desirable traits. This third core subject is important to get in its right context. eg, a prepper on his lonesome or of limited small numbers in a PSHTF scenario is in no way going to be in the same situation as a military unit operating in peace or war time. This means that military hardware, designed and constructed en masse and available by organised resupply to military units, is not necessarily a good option for the prepper. This is very important to take on board, as what may appear good now or on utube reviews is not necessarily going to be much use PSHTF when spares or replacements or ammo are not forthcoming, possibly for any foreseeable future - then the weapon & ammo choice needs to be considered very carefully. This is one area where more primitive technology like bows could score well, but in the initial PSHTF scenario then this advantage is not yet apparent. Knowledge of their use & construction would be an excellent skill to have on standby.

Lastly - Skill, there needs to be some and some weapons take significantly more skill and hence practice to become proficient at. Therefore this is a serious consideration before taking up any one choice.

Not reviewed as yet is a lever action 308 Winchester style carbine. these have some excellent all round capabilities - BUT restocking of Ammo PSHTF would be a big problem - unless you were able to access your own previously stored supplies. Reloading on the trail is doable if the right bullet mod and powder is available - even expedient powders and salvaged lead - as per the shotgun is possible - but the bullet mold is crucial to have already. Luckily these are small affairs and could be carried. Accuracy and a good skill level will be needed to gain the benefits of this weapon type. Also licence requirements now are a problem for many. Cost and practice are others. The usual bout of pro's & cons....

The "not looking for a fight" option is the best. I understand the request for an all encompassing weapon type to be attempting to identify suitable tools to help achieve this and if "not looking for a fight" does not work, then the tool or weapon needs to do the job effectively. It also needs to be useful for hunting as the thread implied. If you take one or the other criteria away, then the positive & negatives change considerably, which equals different choices or options. This review was for one weapon across the board.

As for those who do not have access or do not wish to aquire access to legal firearms, then the choices would be different. A review system for non firearms would be useful. It will still however be important to understand the strengths and weaknesses of all weapons likely to be encountered or that one may possibly aquire PSHTF. A high score in a non firearm review chart will not usually equate across at the same level on to a fire arms review table. Maybe 2 separate review listings and then an amalgamated and re-sorted listing would be useful for an individuals full analysis.
Tartar Hoard puts across well the way an understanding of his weapons abilities will mean a different response to varying scenarios.

There is one more point that should be looked into by any serious prepper, especially if without present access to firearms (That is now - before SHTF) and that is that an expedient shotgun is very simple to make and considerably easier than a bow or many other projectile weapons. The info is all out there, from "slam fire" Paltic shotguns, used by Phillipino Guerilla fighters against the Japanese in WW2. The CIA even supplied manuals on "how to" to various guerrilla fighters against Communism in the Mid 20th Century. All this info is "old hat" now and available online somewhere. Obviously physically completing the manufacture of any firearm at the moment is illegal and I do not advise or condone that. The knowledge is key and the materials are readily available.
Also some prior knowledge of firearms and their operation may well be useful for PSHTF, even if you do not go down the hobby/licencing/owning/practical route.

Just remember that in a country where all gun ownership is banned, then only the state henchmen and the criminals have guns! This will apply PSHTF, especially if there has been a gun grab first. There are thousands of illegal guns in major cities alone. Don't get caught with your pants down and lots of untested theories in your head.. LOL, TL.

i think the old maxim " he who runs away lives to fight another day" is very apt in a SHTF scenario.

[BeardyMan]

I'd take all 3. Saw down the barrels of both shot guns, one as short as possible, the other mid length. Short one for personal protection, longer one for hunting & personal protection, and the crossbow for hunting. Or if you don't want to carry all 3 and ammunition for all then I'd ditch one shotty and go with a sawn off and the crossbow.

[Tartar Horde]

The major factor for me is the ability to keep any weapon in serviceable condition and the ease of aquiring ammunition. I always take the long view with an eye to the future and carry out a risk analysis for every aquisition. I ask myself "if something was to break on this weapon, could I still use it without that part, can I get the part, or can I make the part"? I also do this for the ammunition. I used to own an Air Arms S200 ten shot PCP rifle, which to be honest was a fantastic rifle and very accurate, but when I looked hard at it using my risk analysis it became a liability if I was to rely on it in any SHTF scenario. I could buy all the seals springs and spare parts I wanted for any eventuality, but I realised the rifle does not come with open sights so I have to have at least a spare scope if one breaks, and hope I don't have any accidents that break the last one. If the scope breaks it would be a useless expensive club as I can't make telescopic sights, nor for that matter open ones.

[BeardyMan]

Nothing lasts forever, no matter how many spare parts you have for it.
That useless expensive club may very well come in handy - there's not much that can go wrong with a scope - as long as the glass isn't broken.
Open sights are usually just a reference point anyway, same with a scope if you're firing at a different range to what it's zero'd in at.

[Tartar Horde]

(19 April 2013, 11:22)BeardyMan Wrote: Nothing lasts forever, no matter how many spare parts you have for it.
That useless expensive club may very well come in handy - there's not much that can go wrong with a scope - as long as the glass isn't broken.
Open sights are usually just a reference point anyway, same with a scope if you're firing at a different range to what it's zero'd in at.

I have had three scopes that have broken the reticules BM due to recoil, trust me mate they do break, but you're right the lens tend to be tough. I am unable to make any parts for a rifle in a SHTF scenario, and to be honest don't know many people who could, they all rely on put by spare parts. The only weapon I myself can be truly self sufficient in is the Bow as I can make everything I need to shoot, the only other weapons I could honestly put my hand on my heart and say I could make would be the Atlatl and spear. I could make a catapult, or even a slingshot rifle but eventually the rubber would run out and there aren't many rubber trees in East Yorkshire. I may be taking an extreme outlook here but I don't like relying on something that relies on other people making parts for it.

[bigpaul]

if i had to choose i expect i would ditch the air rifles-pellets dont last forever-and go with the bows- my longbow and my horsebow..i can always make arrows from what is around me but i cant make pellets without some kind of mould. its possible to make a bow out of a length of PVC piping and a metal rod in an emergency.

[Jack]

It's relatively easy to make pellets, swaging and moulding pellets can be done at home, you could buy a kit in your chosen calibre or if you are adept in the workshop, make your own. Lead can be found in abundance is you know where look and has a low melting point.

I'm not proficient in the use of a bow, xbows yes but can't consistently get the same results with a bow as I just do not have the skill.
For me an air rifle will be my choice of hunting weapon supplemented with traps for bigger game that I would dispatch with a priest (club) or use the xbow.

As for scopes many things can and do go wrong with them, most are filled with nitrogen to keep atmosphere out of the body giving better optics, recoil does and will effect most scopes but if you buy a reputable brand and make sure its at a ballistic grade you should be fine.
A 30/30 reticle is ok but mill dots give you multiple reference points for poi (point of impact) and you can map it much better at pre defined ranges (I use an MTC mamba with sbc ret I can't recommend enough!)