(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: I stand corrected.
As you say a lot of that info is just what iv read on the net.
Been a while since iv had a telling off and im not to big to be corrected.
Oh, it was in no way intended as a telling off, I just hate to see the myth perpetuated again and again. When people try to base a moral judgement on incorrect facts they got from XYZ website, you are swallowing the propaganda of the anti's. Follow that track and you might as well swallow anyones.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: A couple of point i would like to say without looking like im trying to create an argument.
Go ahead, I only argue with Barney, and that is only by PM.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: Some farmers i know do produced there own seed for fodder crops year after year to feed there animals. They also plant food crops from seed they have produced. I dont know they legality of this?
It is legal as long as the seed is not sold with a condition attached. GM seeds are patented, Hybrids are copyrighted, but you would get a load of rubbish that was not worth its time on the land if you grew a hybrid.
Farmers do grow fodder crops - beets, mangles, kale, cow cabbage, and grass to name but a few. All bar the grass come from plant families that are bi-annuals - the edible part grows in the first year, the seeds form in the second.
Realistically, to grow some for seed, you would have to set an area aside to do this to separate them for those used for feed. From the point of view of crop rotation, fertilising and the work involved, this is just not efficient.
Growing fodder crops and growing crops for seed are really very disperate activities. I would question if these farmers are in fact farmers - is the farm a business unit in its own right?
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: I was trying to highlight the control the seed companies hold over us already.
A lot of people dont realise the control these companies hold over us already and how important it is to have your own seeds to grow.
The new seed laws are being brought into force by the big seed companies for them to profit and to make it harder for the smaller guys to compete. In no way are they being made to help any of us, its all about greed and control.
Yes, understand our economy is not capitalist, it is corporatists. The corporations determine the rules of the game so they can better play it an small scale competitors cannot compete.
Seed companies, fuel companies, water companies, baby nappies companies, vehicle companies - they all lobby for laws they say are to protect the consumer but they infact protect the business. Do not be surprised that seed companies do the same as other companies.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: Like you say they were trying to make every seed company licence every different type of seed and that looks like it will happen. Even if that is done on a self certification.
This will still restrict what seeds are available now and in the future.
One way or the other its not good.
I said no such thing. Please do not put words into my mouth. I said at no point every seed company should be or was made to licence every type of seed.
What I said was every seed company had to have type approval. This type approval was so if you bought Alicante tomato seed, or Ailsa Craig onions, or Ironman broccoli that is what you got. Previously, that type approval had to be undertaken by a government sanctioned body. Now, seed companies can self certify in a lot of cases if they gain approval to do so.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: You seem to have done more research than myself on a lot of subjects.
You may have done a lot more research into areas that I have never looked at. Its the good thing of the internet, we can all come together and share.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: If it boiled down to what report i would believe i usually pick the underdog even if he lost a court case to a billion dollar seed company.
But thats just me.
I remember feeling outraged that a multinational was picking on the little guy. Before I opened my mouth about it, I did some research. Before you research a subject, research how to do research. It does sound a bit - well, a bit like I am talking down when I say that - but unless you can research, you are just gobbling up the ideas of others and spitting them back out.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: Regarding tesco, My Ex misses worked for them and they were banned/restricted from buying land close to there stores. I dont know the exact legal restrictions that were imposed?
My comments about tesco were totally off topic and shouldnt have diluted the content of this important thread. Sorry NorthernRaider.
Banned/restricted is a bit of a back off from "banned by the UK government". It would be illegal to ban anyone or anything in the UK from buying any land, so long as they were not bankrupt. All that could be done is that local government could say that if XYZ company bought some land, they would probably not get planning permission to do ABC with it.
Tesco, in the main, does not buy land anyway. They will use a property or development company that they own to do this. To stop a property or development company from buying
some land, they would have to be banned from buying
any land and this would be part of a court order, a wind up order or bankruptcy order.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: My point is seed sales will be restriced/reduced and the prices will rise.
Squeezing the little man in the street even more.
I do not agree - the big seed companies (Thompson & Morgan et al) only sell a very limited range of seeds per plant, the smaller ones who cater to the market of different types - for example
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: I stand corrected.
As you say a lot of that info is just what iv read on the net.
Been a while since iv had a telling off and im not to big to be corrected.
Oh, it was in no way intended as a telling off, I just hate to see the myth perpetuated again and again. When people try to base a moral judgement on incorrect facts they got from XYZ website, you are swallowing the propaganda of the anti's. Follow that track and you might as well swallow anyones.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: A couple of point i would like to say without looking like im trying to create an argument.
Go ahead, I only argue with Barney, and that is only by PM.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: Some farmers i know do produced there own seed for fodder crops year after year to feed there animals. They also plant food crops from seed they have produced. I dont know they legality of this?
It is legal as long as the seed is not sold with a condition attached. GM seeds are patented, Hybrids are copyrighted, but you would get a load of rubbish that was not worth its time on the land if you grew a hybrid.
Farmers do grow fodder crops - beets, mangles, kale, cow cabbage, and grass to name but a few. All bar the grass come from plant families that are bi-annuals - the edible part grows in the first year, the seeds form in the second.
Realistically, to grow some for seed, you would have to set an area aside to do this to separate them for those used for feed. From the point of view of crop rotation, fertilising and the work involved, this is just not efficient.
Growing fodder crops and growing crops for seed are really very disperate activities. I would question if these farmers are in fact farmers - is the farm a business unit in its own right?
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: I was trying to highlight the control the seed companies hold over us already.
A lot of people dont realise the control these companies hold over us already and how important it is to have your own seeds to grow.
The new seed laws are being brought into force by the big seed companies for them to profit and to make it harder for the smaller guys to compete. In no way are they being made to help any of us, its all about greed and control.
Yes, understand our economy is not capitalist, it is corporatists. The corporations determine the rules of the game so they can better play it an small scale competitors cannot compete.
Seed companies, fuel companies, water companies, baby nappies companies, vehicle companies - they all lobby for laws they say are to protect the consumer but they infact protect the business. Do not be surprised that seed companies do the same as other companies.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: Like you say they were trying to make every seed company licence every different type of seed and that looks like it will happen. Even if that is done on a self certification.
This will still restrict what seeds are available now and in the future.
One way or the other its not good.
I said no such thing. Please do not put words into my mouth. I said at no point every seed company should be or was made to licence every type of seed.
What I said was every seed company had to have type approval. This type approval was so if you bought Alicante tomato seed, or Ailsa Craig onions, or Ironman broccoli that is what you got. Previously, that type approval had to be undertaken by a government sanctioned body. Now, seed companies can self certify in a lot of cases if they gain approval to do so.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: You seem to have done more research than myself on a lot of subjects.
You may have done a lot more research into areas that I have never looked at. Its the good thing of the internet, we can all come together and share.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: If it boiled down to what report i would believe i usually pick the underdog even if he lost a court case to a billion dollar seed company.
But thats just me.
I remember feeling outraged that a multinational was picking on the little guy. Before I opened my mouth about it, I did some research. Before you research a subject, research how to do research. It does sound a bit - well, a bit like I am talking down when I say that - but unless you can research, you are just gobbling up the ideas of others and spitting them back out.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: Regarding tesco, My Ex misses worked for them and they were banned/restricted from buying land close to there stores. I dont know the exact legal restrictions that were imposed?
My comments about tesco were totally off topic and shouldnt have diluted the content of this important thread. Sorry NorthernRaider.
Banned/restricted is a bit of a back off from "banned by the UK government". It would be illegal to ban anyone or anything in the UK from buying any land, so long as they were not bankrupt. All that could be done is that local government could say that if XYZ company bought some land, they would probably not get planning permission to do ABC with it.
Tesco, in the main, does not buy land anyway. They will use a property or development company that they own to do this. To stop a property or development company from buying
some land, they would have to be banned from buying
any land and this would be part of a court order, a wind up order or bankruptcy order.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: My point is seed sales will be restriced/reduced and the prices will rise.
Squeezing the little man in the street even more.
I do not agree - the big seed companies ( only sell a very limited range of seeds per plant, the smaller ones who cater to the market of different types
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: I stand corrected.
As you say a lot of that info is just what iv read on the net.
Been a while since iv had a telling off and im not to big to be corrected.
Oh, it was in no way intended as a telling off, I just hate to see the myth perpetuated again and again. When people try to base a moral judgement on incorrect facts they got from XYZ website, you are swallowing the propaganda of the anti's. Follow that track and you might as well swallow anyones.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: A couple of point i would like to say without looking like im trying to create an argument.
Go ahead, I only argue with Barney, and that is only by PM.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: Some farmers i know do produced there own seed for fodder crops year after year to feed there animals. They also plant food crops from seed they have produced. I dont know they legality of this?
It is legal as long as the seed is not sold with a condition attached. GM seeds are patented, Hybrids are copyrighted, but you would get a load of rubbish that was not worth its time on the land if you grew a hybrid.
Farmers do grow fodder crops - beets, mangles, kale, cow cabbage, and grass to name but a few. All bar the grass come from plant families that are bi-annuals - the edible part grows in the first year, the seeds form in the second.
Realistically, to grow some for seed, you would have to set an area aside to do this to separate them for those used for feed. From the point of view of crop rotation, fertilising and the work involved, this is just not efficient.
Growing fodder crops and growing crops for seed are really very disperate activities. I would question if these farmers are in fact farmers - is the farm a business unit in its own right?
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: I was trying to highlight the control the seed companies hold over us already.
A lot of people dont realise the control these companies hold over us already and how important it is to have your own seeds to grow.
The new seed laws are being brought into force by the big seed companies for them to profit and to make it harder for the smaller guys to compete. In no way are they being made to help any of us, its all about greed and control.
Yes, understand our economy is not capitalist, it is corporatists. The corporations determine the rules of the game so they can better play it an small scale competitors cannot compete.
Seed companies, fuel companies, water companies, baby nappies companies, vehicle companies - they all lobby for laws they say are to protect the consumer but they infact protect the business. Do not be surprised that seed companies do the same as other companies.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: Like you say they were trying to make every seed company licence every different type of seed and that looks like it will happen. Even if that is done on a self certification.
This will still restrict what seeds are available now and in the future.
One way or the other its not good.
I said no such thing. Please do not put words into my mouth. I said at no point every seed company should be or was made to licence every type of seed.
What I said was every seed company had to have type approval. This type approval was so if you bought Alicante tomato seed, or Ailsa Craig onions, or Ironman broccoli that is what you got. Previously, that type approval had to be undertaken by a government sanctioned body. Now, seed companies can self certify in a lot of cases if they gain approval to do so.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: You seem to have done more research than myself on a lot of subjects.
You may have done a lot more research into areas that I have never looked at. Its the good thing of the internet, we can all come together and share.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: If it boiled down to what report i would believe i usually pick the underdog even if he lost a court case to a billion dollar seed company.
But thats just me.
I remember feeling outraged that a multinational was picking on the little guy. Before I opened my mouth about it, I did some research. Before you research a subject, research how to do research. It does sound a bit - well, a bit like I am talking down when I say that - but unless you can research, you are just gobbling up the ideas of others and spitting them back out.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: Regarding tesco, My Ex misses worked for them and they were banned/restricted from buying land close to there stores. I dont know the exact legal restrictions that were imposed?
My comments about tesco were totally off topic and shouldnt have diluted the content of this important thread. Sorry NorthernRaider.
Banned/restricted is a bit of a back off from "banned by the UK government". It would be illegal to ban anyone or anything in the UK from buying any land, so long as they were not bankrupt. All that could be done is that local government could say that if XYZ company bought some land, they would probably not get planning permission to do ABC with it.
Tesco, in the main, does not buy land anyway. They will use a property or development company that they own to do this. To stop a property or development company from buying
some land, they would have to be banned from buying
any land and this would be part of a court order, a wind up order or bankruptcy order.
(18 August 2013, 10:33)BFG Central Wrote: My point is seed sales will be restriced/reduced and the prices will rise.
Squeezing the little man in the street even more.
I do not agree - the big seed companies ( only sell a very limited range of seeds per plant), the smaller ones who cater to the market of different types - eg:
http://www.nickys-nursery.co.uk/
http://www.dtbrownseeds.co.uk
Will thrive because they can self approve. The man on the street is not restricted from buying his own seed, nor is he restricted from buying direct from a supplier that is a trade supplier of seed, as many allotment associations do to get cheaper seed in for their members such as:
http://www.tozerseeds.com/eu/en/
With regards to hybrids, I should have said it would be a waste of time if you grew the seed you got from them. Hybrids are an excellent investment for those seeking to grow crops - we would see little to no British Sweetcorn, either in the shops or self grown without hybrids - we might have 'maize' for animal feed, but no sweetcorn for humans if we did not hybridise.
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