gun dreams

[Midnitemo]

that's quite cool but I don't see those stubby barrels getting passed fit for us in the uk....like the selection of spares in the butt.

[NorthernRaider]

when I had my old Bailkal 12 G years ago I had insert for 20 g and 410 as well. Good gun, good fun. Kept barrel legal of course but kept hacksaw in garage incase TSHTF

[Scythe13]

(11 April 2014, 17:20)Midnitemo Wrote: that's quite cool but I don't see those stubby barrels getting passed fit for us in the uk....like the selection of spares in the butt.

UK minimum shotgun barrel length is 24".

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I wanted a Remington 870 Wingmaster 19 inch, but when I found out it was illegal...I nearly cried!

[Mortblanc]

If you already have a shotgun, which you are not mentioning in your dreams, I would go for the rifle I would use/need the most first.

For me, in England, I would expect that to be either a .223 bolt action sporter or a .308/7.62 NATO depending on the game available.

A .223 can do most of everything one would need in a SHTF situation and a .308 would harvest any animal native to the Island and most anything that escaped from the local zoo.

Someone else might consider that need to be a .22 rimfire, but I could live the rest of my life without a rimfire rifle and never feel deprived, due to casting my own lead bullets and reloading .223. I down load the .223 to between long rifle and WMR power levels and it does very well.

It's all just a subjective exercise and you will do what you want to based on your own past experiences I am sure. And that is exactly what you should do.

[Midnitemo]

Mort your reasoning makes good sense, and yes I have shotgun's with a slug mould(just the mould,no loaded cartridges) , so I have the larger deer covered(not legal at this time and I wouldn't dream of taking a deer this way right now) so my first buy will be a .22lr purely because it's the most effective rifle to hunt with here, most of our quarry that will be the most abundant here can be taken with a .22lr given good shot placement(squirrel's,rabbit's,pigeon's,dog's,deer even...though unless I was really desperate I wouldn't try for a big red)ammo is exceedingly cheap/light and compact and it will do for defense...not great but it will do.....second gun will be a centerfire pistol calibre carbine(probably the Marlin in .38/357) and third will be a centre fire high velocity carbine/scout gun probably the cz527(not sure now wether .223 or 7.63x39)....aim to have these 3 within a year.

[Steve]

Although calibres like the .223 will take most deer, after an event you might be looking to shoot domestic animals such as bulls, cows, horses. So, for me a .308 would be the calibre to go for. It's also easy to reload.

My essentials list would include a .22 semi auto with moderator, a lightweight .308 sporter, and a pump action 12g.

[Scythe13]

Okay, I'm going to be a bit of an annoying data thrower now.

Have you considered weight of the gun and practicality of ammo carry?

We all know that more ammo weighs more weight. But have we all factored in the principle that larger calibre rounds weigh more too?

For example, a .22lr is pretty dinky. At a rough estimate, 3 or 4 22lr rounds would be the same weight as 1x.308 round. So carrying 10 .308 rounds would be the same as carrying 30 or 40 of the little .22lr's.

The same is true with most other kinds of ammo, the larger the calibre, the heavier the round, therefore, the less you can carry.

Bugging out with a .308, and 1000 rounds, would be an awful lot more work than bugging out with a .22 rimfire, with 3000 rounds!

This is something I'm still calculating and working out properly. But it's all worth checking out.

For just hunting, go with what will bring down your quarry. For foxes, you can use a .22lr, but some places/counties say you need a .223, while others say you need a .243 for foxes. Same for deer. I've heard of places say you can use a .243 and others say you NEED to use a .308 round.

[Midnitemo]

most squaddies carried 120 rnd's of 7.62X51 into combat in the 70's I believe its around 300 5.56 for the same given weight nowaday's , approx. 10lbs......22lr is tiny you would barely notice 500 in a Bergen but 7.62 is a big round , I'd guess for the same weight you'd probs get75 to 80 rnds

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.243 is the default gun for both foxes and deer if you want to do both with just the one gun loaded with a 70 grain pill zipping along at 3800fps for Charlie 100grain at 3400fps for all species off deer in the uk......some forces don't like the .243 for foxing but you never know your force might be an enlightened one.

[Mortblanc]

What squaddies carry is not relevant in a SHTF situation unless one is in a squad.

A squad is up to 12 men all armed with a selection of TOE weapons to include grenade launchers and squad automatic weapons that mutually support completion of the mission with artillery and air support on call.

Standard load out also goes west in a combat situation and the rule is "leave everything but food and ammo at the house!"

Load out becomes two days MRE rations and the rest of your 70 pound load as ammo. We often abandoned our sleeping gear and replaced it with ammo when we expected problems. I have seen troopers with 12-16 loaded magazines of 7.62/51 and another 500 rounds boxed in their packs. And at least one member of our squads carried a 12ga shotgun!

That is a battle load out!!!

SHTF, cartridge efficiency trumps number of rounds carried. If it will not do the job, or is marginal for its assigned task, you are not a prepper, because you are not prepared.

My own philosophy differs from many due to my training and experiences and the experiences of those that taught me. I grew up with people who had been subsistence farmers during the last Great Depression, living on foraged wild game rather than killing their domestic livestock, which provided them with cash. In almost every case they walked out the near side of that experience carrying repeating shotguns and a medium caliber pistol, and they all viewed the .22lr as a toy for shooting tin cans on Sunday afternoon. (at that period of time all the large and medium game was shot out of our country)

The shotgun will still be the primary small game getter and defense tool because you absolutely, positively can not miss a shot at game. Defense, and therefore the number of rounds you carry, is not number one priority when you are moving about unless you are one of the "Golden Horde".

How many rounds does it take to go hunting? Well, many of us have been handed a shotgun and ONE CARTRIDGE and advised that we better bring something home for supper or we would become vegetarians.

The rifle will be used to extend the range/power of the shotgun.

In my mind the primary rifle should not be less effective than the shotgun nor should it have only equal range or less range than the shotgun, as is the case of the .22lr.

For me the rifle is used for big game or big people, because you want to shoot big game that is skittish and staying far away, or because you are in a defense mode and want to keep the enemy far away. Shoot game as close as possible and shoot people as far away as possible!

Internet forums and the present host of computer commandos have given folks an inflated view of the capabilities of a .22lr and they have reduced the effective range of a shotgun from 60 yards to 25 yards.

My handicap on the trap range is longer than most computer jockeys consider maximum shotgun range!

So, my choice of first gun, in addition to the shotgun, for SHTF would be a center-fire rifle of "adequate caliber" and power to fell 200 pound critters out to 300 yards.

Again, that is just my experience from life and living here on the homestead, dealing with the critters, two legged and four legged, I have encountered.

Your mileage may differ (but that is usually because Imperial gallons are larger than U.S. gallons).

[Scythe13]

Good response MB.

I was thinking a .22 would be a bunny basher. There were US presidents that had been shot with .22lr's and they had not known because the impact was negligible.

Totally agree about the shotgun, but in the UK, we have very few 'larger critters'. Our main 'practice' guns would be .22lr's simply because of the cost of ammo. In a SHTF situation, I'd be opting for a shotty and at least a .223 (I love the AR15). Would be even better to bring out a .308 (yep, Remington 700...love love love that gun), but the practicalities would not be there.