Things the world is running out of...

[Timelord]

That is already happening. As you know - I know - You know
Anyway, the demand across the power sector is still going much higher across the developed and the now massive developing world with all the network & energy devices coming on line throughout society. This is offsetting far more than the communications network fibreoptic revolution. We Westerners are just greedy consumers - of everything including our own wellbeing & sanity!!!! lol

[Tonka]

It's hippys buying all those holistic copper bracelets that will cause the shortage. Them and preppers making EMP shielding.

[HunterNurturer]

(7 July 2012, 19:58)Timelord Wrote: More like 60 million will starve as TSHTF..

Anyway in relation to an earlier post:- the price of copper will not become too expensive to manufacture cable, as then the producers & suppliers would be out of business. It is like oil in marketry.. Another thing - resouces like copper etc are more available than you would think. A hell of a lot of these resorces is still around to be recycled. At the moment it is a capatalist culture of fast money by aquiring new produced resources and turning them into an oversupply of consumer goods. If the new mined source becomes more scarce/costly, then recycling will become even bigger business. Society will have to look at ways of reclaiming a wider spectrum of materials from a wider spectrum of obselete goods. Obviously the price will go up and the oversupply model will be squeezed, but we will not run out of resources like copper, we will just have to use the massive amount already artificially deposited in the environment to a cleverer more efficient degree.

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Spelling mistak x2- "resources". Typing too fast and craply.lol

That's the point, they will go out of business because it will get too expensive to be used in wiring. Why don't we use silver for wiring? Because it's too damn expensive, even though it has higher conductivity. If you read the original post you'd see I didn't say we'd run of copper, but we don't need to for it to cause a big problem ie. nobody can afford to buy copper wiring anymore, manufacturers can't afford to put it in their electrical products anymore and are forced to use less efficient metals. Think of the cost and time of changing the way every electricity based appliance fundamentally works... we're not giving up on electricity any time soon so demand is only going to keep growing.

[Timelord]

You can not have our present[/i] modern hitech civilization without copper wiring like you cant have the current model of hitech civilization without oil.... These markets are managed on a daily basis and there is only so high the commodities prices can be pushed before they collapse their own markets - which they won't do. Any fundamental shift goes at a snails pace.

Hunternurturer wrote :-
"If you read the original post you'd see I didn't say we'd run of copper, but we don't need to for it to cause a big problem ie. nobody can afford to buy copper wiring anymore, manufacturers can't afford to put it in their electrical products anymore and are forced to use less efficient metals."

The only reason your scenario of the cost of copper to become unaffordable would be because the supply was "drying up". That is the same as "running out" over time - a dwindling resource.. The copper is not running out as yet and there is lots to be reclaimed in the future as we shift around other technologies. It may get dearer in the future as it is already doing so but it will not be pushed out of the buying power of the main manufacturers & consumers. Just like oil. If the producers can get away with charging a high price, they will. If they can't, they won't. They may even have to accept less profit, horror of horrors. I believe the oil industry is facing this dilemma at the moment and is why they are intent on the fracking debacle. The copper producers who do feel the squeeze if prices go ever higher , will just be bought out by the few industry mega corporations left. Sound familiar?

The reason we don't use silver in the 99.99% of wiring is not at the core heart of it because it is expensive... The real reason is because it is much rarer than silver. That is why it is valued higher than copper. So yes this makes it expensive but you have to look at the fundamental reasons why something is so. The price of something is only a given artificial representation of value measured against its real physical worth.

Most power systems in our modern world are designed & spec'd to run on copper. We can not just substitute a cheaper material for the conductors and expect the systems to work the same. It would be a truely extraordinarily mammoth task to make the change and would cost far more to achieve than saved by the change itself. No one wants to pay for that and especially a company with annual profits to protect. So it is unlikely to happen until our economic culture has already passed the point of no return from the abyss.

Aluminium may be a suitable substitute in a domestic setting but the cost of change at present outweighs the benefit. This could change in the future. The equipment/circuit ratings would have to be reworked. Aluminium will also be a finite resource, especially at the daily rate we are producing it.

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Paragraph 4, sentance 2 should read "The real reason is because it is much rarer than copper. That is why it is valued higher than copper."

Thankyou.

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Paragraph 4 is alluding to perceived values of material worth in relation to the commodities markets. The money value is only a trading medium. The real reasons behind the figures are fundamental & wideranging issues around the globe.

[Kenneth Eames]

I can see a time when old landfills will be excavated to extract many materials that have been jetissoned in the past. If my wife should die before me, I am thinking I would be looking for an old house somewhere, without electricity and other modern conveniences, and live more primitively. When I was a boy, I had an aunt and uncle who lived that way. My old aunt Elizabeth lived by candlelight and water from the well. She had a wood burning range and open fire. My old Uncle was a shepherd and lived in a shed on the downs and lived in much the same way as my aunt Elizabeth. I am sure I could live that way too. Kenneth Eames.

[David075]

(8 July 2012, 05:38)Kenneth Eames Wrote: I can see a time when old landfills will be excavated to extract many materials that have been jetissoned in the past. If my wife should die before me, I am thinking I would be looking for an old house somewhere, without electricity and other modern conveniences, and live more primitively. When I was a boy, I had an aunt and uncle who lived that way. My old aunt Elizabeth lived by candlelight and water from the well. She had a wood burning range and open fire. My old Uncle was a shepherd and lived in a shed on the downs and lived in much the same way as my aunt Elizabeth. I am sure I could live that way too. Kenneth Eames.

I think that more people will be living a more primitive lifestyle in the future the idea is appealing to me but like most people im hooked on the modern lifestyle.

[NorthernRaider]

I think we will have a big bloody war before long to rebalance the status quo, theres just to many mouths to feed and the ruling elites are starting to realise their nice luxurious lifestyles of wealth and power are becoming vulnerable. They need to get the sheeple and prolls to kill off a few billion of themselves so they dont turn on their masters.

[HunterNurturer]

(8 July 2012, 01:19)Timelord Wrote: You can not have our present[/i] modern hitech civilization without copper wiring like you cant have the current model of hitech civilization without oil.... These markets are managed on a daily basis and there is only so high the commodities prices can be pushed before they collapse their own markets - which they won't do. Any fundamental shift goes at a snails pace.

Hunternurturer wrote :-
"If you read the original post you'd see I didn't say we'd run of copper, but we don't need to for it to cause a big problem ie. nobody can afford to buy copper wiring anymore, manufacturers can't afford to put it in their electrical products anymore and are forced to use less efficient metals."

The only reason your scenario of the cost of copper to become unaffordable would be because the supply was "drying up". That is the same as "running out" over time - a dwindling resource.. The copper is not running out as yet and there is lots to be reclaimed in the future as we shift around other technologies. It may get dearer in the future as it is already doing so but it will not be pushed out of the buying power of the main manufacturers & consumers. Just like oil. If the producers can get away with charging a high price, they will. If they can't, they won't. They may even have to accept less profit, horror of horrors. I believe the oil industry is facing this dilemma at the moment and is why they are intent on the fracking debacle. The copper producers who do feel the squeeze if prices go ever higher , will just be bought out by the few industry mega corporations left. Sound familiar?

The reason we don't use silver in the 99.99% of wiring is not at the core heart of it because it is expensive... The real reason is because it is much rarer than silver. That is why it is valued higher than copper. So yes this makes it expensive but you have to look at the fundamental reasons why something is so. The price of something is only a given artificial representation of value measured against its real physical worth.

Most power systems in our modern world are designed & spec'd to run on copper. We can not just substitute a cheaper material for the conductors and expect the systems to work the same. It would be a truely extraordinarily mammoth task to make the change and would cost far more to achieve than saved by the change itself. No one wants to pay for that and especially a company with annual profits to protect. So it is unlikely to happen until our economic culture has already passed the point of no return from the abyss.

Aluminium may be a suitable substitute in a domestic setting but the cost of change at present outweighs the benefit. This could change in the future. The equipment/circuit ratings would have to be reworked. Aluminium will also be a finite resource, especially at the daily rate we are producing it.

---

Paragraph 4, sentance 2 should read "The real reason is because it is much rarer than copper. That is why it is valued higher than copper."

Thankyou.

---

Paragraph 4 is alluding to perceived values of material worth in relation to the commodities markets. The money value is only a trading medium. The real reasons behind the figures are fundamental & wideranging issues around the globe.

We actually agree on more than we disagree on. The only thing we disagree on is whether copper will reach a price that makes it unusable by today's standards or pushes prices of everyday things higher (ie. IMO you won't be able to buy that £5 kettle for £5 when it has £8 worth of copper in it)

[NorthernRaider]

The chinese are after as much copper as they can get that why they are in places like Zambia and Zimbabwe bribing anyone and everyone.

[bigpaul]

(8 July 2012, 08:56)David075 Wrote:

(8 July 2012, 05:38)Kenneth Eames Wrote: I can see a time when old landfills will be excavated to extract many materials that have been jetissoned in the past. If my wife should die before me, I am thinking I would be looking for an old house somewhere, without electricity and other modern conveniences, and live more primitively. When I was a boy, I had an aunt and uncle who lived that way. My old aunt Elizabeth lived by candlelight and water from the well. She had a wood burning range and open fire. My old Uncle was a shepherd and lived in a shed on the downs and lived in much the same way as my aunt Elizabeth. I am sure I could live that way too. Kenneth Eames.

I think that more people will be living a more primitive lifestyle in the future the idea is appealing to me but like most people im hooked on the modern lifestyle.

i find a more basic lifestyle VERY appealing, my wife has actually lived that life, but unlike most neither of us has much time for modern technology and would happily live without it, the only think i would miss is talking to my friends on this site.