pluoghing land

[Tartar Horde]

(2 November 2012, 12:58)bigpaul Wrote:

(2 November 2012, 12:53)Tartar Horde Wrote: Our (my) lack of knowledge on this subject makes me think about the very real need to grow "grains" after any significant event. Given that an experienced Ploughman could do an Acre a day (not that big really) gives us an idea how demanding this work can be, without any experience someone attempting the same task I reckon would struggle. I don't mind admitting I would find it a steep learning curve.
Regarding Horses you would definately need a larger framed Horse like Hunters or Shires, I don't think smaller Horses and Ponies will have the power to pull a Plough. Cattle seem to be the best choice for pulling power, and I think there would be more cattle available than large Horses. It seems a plough is not just a plough, there are different designs for differing soil types etc. I know how to saddle a Horse, but yoking a team of them to a plough is a different thing altogether.
I'd like to know your thoughts on the subject, and will it even be necessary to plough etc.

forget "hunters", they are too highly strung to pull ANYTHING, you need a shire or a cob for that sort of work.

So regarding Horses, shires and Cobs are the only breeds worth considering?
What about Cattle, traditionally Oxen were used, but the picture in an earlier post shows what look to be "standard" looking animals being used to plough, does this mean you can use any Cattle to plough?
I'm not sure how many "shire" and "cob" type Horses there are in uk, are they common? I know that I've never seen an Ox so I take it they must be rare these days?

[Prepper1]

I think theres a difference ploughing grass into soil so to speak and ploughing already turned over soil.
Turning over grass by hand into sowable land is hard work, so I would asume hard for the cows or whatever pulling it.
However the plough in one of my earlier posts looks small and light AND the ground seems "farmed"
Thats what I have an allotment for now, its for growing food but most of all practice in growing, digging, etc...
I dont want to be practicing post shtf when I should be growing food.
After all ANY growing failures post shtf could mean the difference between life and death.
Allotments may be hard work, but in my opinion provide great exercise of the right sort ie digging exercise grows the right muscles for digging post shtf. so does being out in all weathers planning what your growing where your growing and most of all practice
With the amount of failures I experienced the first year I've learned lessons and next years crops will be better and the year after better than that and so on.

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AND I store seeds.
A lot of preppers dont/wont store seeds because they think they'll be able to get them post shtf.
A mistake in my opinion, Like B.P. said in one of his posts I believe, "its always better to have something and not need it than not have it and need it"
seeds for me fall into that category but thats just my opinion that I'd rather have the seeds to plant than need seeds and not have them.

[bigpaul]

i am just wondering why anyone would want to plough anyway? if someone isnt doing it for commercial reasons...i dont even think the subject would arise. i mean after TSHTF we are all going to be growing for ourselves and our families-but not for resale/retail purposes- so i would have thought we are working on allotment size pieces of land rather than acres and acres??

[BDG]

Couple of things on what has been posted:

- You would not yolk horses to pull anything, you would use a collar - simply because with a collar, your are moving the energy from the animal where it has the best bone structure to take it from. A yolk on a horse would restrict its breathing.

- Growing things post SHTF - do we want grains? Well, they are damn useful for animal feed, for feeding me? I dare say I could live without them as food, but as beer? We are going to have to grow some, and to grow grains, best way is to plough the land, disc it and roll the seed in.

Would you want to hand dig a large patch of land, trample it, broadcast seed and take a hand rake to it? Keep in mind how long it would take to hand dig that patch of land you are not productive doing other things.

- Horses - you could plough with any type of horse and get the job done to an extent. To what extent depends on the breed.

- I would look to use oxen. As was asked, do they exist in the UK, oxen are just cattle that have been trained to work. You could use any cattle you liked and train it.

[bigpaul]

forget ploughing anything, forget hand digging, go for raised beds and the "no-dig" approach, easier and faster and not so hard on your back.

[Prepper1]

(2 November 2012, 16:42)bigpaul Wrote: forget ploughing anything, forget hand digging, go for raised beds and the "no-dig" approach, easier and faster and not so hard on your back.

I go for that, but unfortunatly at the moment my allotments in bad shape from the last keeper, so needs lots of tlc to raise the beds etc.
Still worth it though because of the knowledge you gain and the food you grow in the meantime.
Everything you grow is saved from being bought so saves you money.

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I'm a BIG fan of saving money free's best but cheaps next best.

[IB1]

I'm sure I read somewhere - John Seymour possibly - that you would need about 5 acres for a family to be self sufficient, and more if the land was not very good quality. Not all of that would need to be dug as you need grazing for goats, growing fruit etc, but a fair amount would and it would be bloody hard work and time consuming if it was just you and a spade, especially as you will probably need to rotate the land each year or so as well

[bigpaul]

John Seymour was talking about a farm or more correctly a smallholding, you need the animals firstly for their meat but mainly for their dung, however he was NOT talking about WTSHTF but about self- sufficiency, although his book is my bible it was also written many years ago, you dont need acres and acres of land for enough fruit and veg just to feed a family with,( just how much fruit and veg does anyone eat anyway?) and as for animals you dont need sheep or cattle, you could have hens and rabbits (maybe pygmy goats?)..easier to handle and you dont need huge fields, its all about scale, why kill your self trying to plough-especially if you've never done it before? if my late B-I-L- was here he would tell you its very hard work!

[IB1]

I'm surprised because a quick scan of the internet shows at the minimum 1/2 an acre per person and generally at least one acre per person is required

Sure it can be supplemented by hunting and gathering but the success of that depends on how many people are left and how good a hunter you are

If anyones plan is based around growing food for yourself and family to survive then it would be good if you could post how much land you plan for and how you came by that figure

[Prepper1]

Its called permaculture.
Have a watch of this is sort of explains everything.
Aparently a family can manage on about three acres but thats not instant it takes years of work.
Hense my banging on about getting your practice in now while you can.
After an event practice is not an option.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVBYgg013KM