Where Most Prepping Falls Short:

[CharlesHarris]

We pompous Dickheads need to stick together. Soylent Green is people! 8-)

[NorthernRaider]

There is nothing pompous or dickhead like about you Charles.

New Improved Soylent Green now with more girls.

[bigpaul]

I have always thought that humans as a species have come so far that they have further to fall WHEN the collapse comes, some may think we are too advanced to fail, I think that is very niave, other civilisations before us have failed, we are no different. the only trouble is MOST humans of the western civilisation are now so far removed from their natural roots that they would not survive without their technology, global delivery systems and mains services. many preppers(I don't class myself as a prepper, I am a survivalist) seem to think prepping is all about amassing a huge pile of consumer "stuff" and that's it-job done, I don't agree, I do not subscribe to the theory that post SHTF we will be able to trundle into the city, find what we need in the burnt out remains of the stores and help ourselves, if we cannot make a new one or repair the old one then we had better make sure we can do without because that is the 3rd and only other option. I also do not subscribe to the "hordes" theory, maybe that would apply in the USA where they have a different attitude but even there not all would leave, same in the UK, I don't agree that millions of people would leave their homes and become Refugees without anywhere to go just hoping for the best, sure a few will wander about but we can deal with a few. some preppers only prep for the small sometimes personal tragedies(unemployment, illness, divorce, power cuts, the odd union strike....you know the small events we have all lives through ourselves in the past....some of us more than once! that is their choice, my philosophy is that if I prepare for the big one, "the collapse", civil unrest, societal collapse, and TEOTWAWKI then by definition I have also covered for the small events too as my preps are universal and can be used for those too. I would rather be proved wrong about the event than be proved right but just in case I am (right) I've got it covered.

[Devonian]

(1 December 2014, 15:12)bigpaul Wrote: I have always thought that humans as a species have come so far that they have further to fall WHEN the collapse comes, some may think we are too advanced to fail, I think that is very niave, other civilisations before us have failed, we are no different. the only trouble is MOST humans of the western civilisation are now so far removed from their natural roots that they would not survive without their technology, global delivery systems and mains services. many preppers(I don't class myself as a prepper, I am a survivalist) seem to think prepping is all about amassing a huge pile of consumer "stuff" and that's it-job done, I don't agree, I do not subscribe to the theory that post SHTF we will be able to trundle into the city, find what we need in the burnt out remains of the stores and help ourselves, if we cannot make a new one or repair the old one then we had better make sure we can do without because that is the 3rd and only other option. I also do not subscribe to the "hordes" theory, maybe that would apply in the USA where they have a different attitude but even there not all would leave, same in the UK, I don't agree that millions of people would leave their homes and become Refugees without anywhere to go just hoping for the best, sure a few will wander about but we can deal with a few. some preppers only prep for the small sometimes personal tragedies(unemployment, illness, divorce, power cuts, the odd union strike....you know the small events we have all lives through ourselves in the past....some of us more than once! that is their choice, my philosophy is that if I prepare for the big one, "the collapse", civil unrest, societal collapse, and TEOTWAWKI then by definition I have also covered for the small events too as my preps are universal and can be used for those too. I would rather be proved wrong about the event than be proved right but just in case I am (right) I've got it covered.

Another good post BP and I tend to agree with just about all of that.

The only area where we perhaps differ is that I think human advancement, technology and knowledge will help after any kind of collapse. For example even if we are unable to manufacture again in the short term, there is way to much stuff already out there that can be butchered and cobbled together to help future societies.

Just think about 'Greg' in the 1970's Survivors programme, there will be people around like him who will be able to tap into the wind turbines and solar farms to provide local electricity; they will be people around who will be able to get engines working; people who can create bio-diesel,; people who can get solid fuel boilers working; people who will be able to manufacture (or cobble together) tools and other equipment etc etc. Also housing and other property will likely (largely) remain intact, as will other infrastructure.....

So once things "settle down" I don't see us living in the dark ages again, yes we won't have Tesco's or mobile phones, or the interweb, and we will be living to survive each and every day, rather than simply working 9-5....

But for me the biggest threat we face is simply ourselves, ie: 65+ million people.

[Mortblanc]

(1 December 2014, 01:09)Steve Wrote: Maybe it's a "clash of cultures", but to my British sensibilities you often come across as a pompous dickhead. That's a shame, because you obviously have a lot to offer.

Yes it is a severe clash of cultures. Some here are more concerned with their anti-American, anti-Constitutional politics than with common sense survival.

You are more concerned with where I live than in what I say based on fact and history.

As for the calling of names?? I try to refrain from that no matter what kind of foolishness you post. All while getting constant PM warnings to "play nice" while the abuse is being heaped on.

If one searches my entire post history there is not a single instance where I referred to anyone as a "dickhead", "asshole" or any other derogatory term while these insults have been thrown at me constantly due to presentation of factual information that bursts some bubble of fantasy.

If I "obviously have a lot to offer" then quit trying to force me to say what is "acceptable" instead of what is accurate, or to simply force me to go away and leave you to your continuous search for Never-Never Land.

I must admit that being here has been a very enlightening experience, has helped me form new opinions and has reinforced lessons taught by my mentors.

[bigpaul]

(1 December 2014, 16:21)Devonian Wrote: But for me the biggest threat we face is simply ourselves, ie: 65+ million people.

without their technology, global delivery systems and main services its not going to be 65 million people it will be a fraction of this.

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without all that lovely cheap food being imported from the other side of the world we cannot even hope to feed 65 million people, given the acreage available in this country(which becomes less and less each year) we can only feed 25% of the current population, maybe 16-20 million at the very most. the only reason we can feed so many now is that we are taking the surplus from other less well of countries in exchange for cold hard cash.

[Devonian]

(1 December 2014, 16:30)bigpaul Wrote: without their technology, global delivery systems and main services its not going to be 65 million people it will be a fraction of this.

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without all that lovely cheap food being imported from the other side of the world we cannot even hope to feed 65 million people, given the acreage available in this country(which becomes less and less each year) we can only feed 25% of the current population, maybe 16-20 million at the very most. the only reason we can feed so many now is that we are taking the surplus from other less well of countries in exchange for cold hard cash.

But this is and always will be a huge unknown, none of us really know what will happen (if) and I do mean if such a wide scale event were to ever happen.

Despite what many of us believe, there is no evidence throughout history, in any country (that I am aware of) to support such die off theories. But I'd be interested to see any 'evidence' of mass die offs....

As I mentioned yesterday, if you take the famine in the early 1980's in Ethiopia as an example of a truly devastating SHTF type event, then at the time the population of Ethiopia was around 36Million (it is now over 90Million) but as devastating as the famine was, only about 400K people died as a result, so that was a die off rate of around just 1%, no where near a 90% die off.

And the problem with feeding ourselves at the moment is more to do with the type of foods we eat. If the land was turned over to grains; potatoes; turnips/swede; cabbage; spinach etc, then we would be able to feed ourselves......

[NorthernRaider]

Though our population has risen in excess of 20 million since the end of WW2 when we struggled to feed our people today we have far more advanced agricultural systems and much more productive land, BUT (always a but isn't there?) Modern agriculture is utterly reliant on chemical fertilisers and pesticides made from oil, the plant and agricultural equipment is utterly reliant on oil products.

Our WAR reserves of fuel will support the MILITARY for nearly 90 days but that same fuel if redirected to the entire nations food production industry would only last a week or two.

God knows which horrible scenario is likely to come to pass, the best we can do is try and use as broad a brush as possible with our preps.

[Devonian]

(1 December 2014, 17:04)NorthernRaider Wrote: Though our population has risen in excess of 20 million since the end of WW2 when we struggled to feed our people today we have far more advanced agricultural systems and much more productive land, BUT (always a but isn't there?) Modern agriculture is utterly reliant on chemical fertilisers and pesticides made from oil, the plant and agricultural equipment is utterly reliant on oil products.

Our WAR reserves of fuel will support the MILITARY for nearly 90 days but that same fuel if redirected to the entire nations food production industry would only last a week or two.

God knows which horrible scenario is likely to come to pass, the best we can do is try and use as broad a brush as possible with our preps.

There is one piece of farm equipment that doesn't rely on petrol/oil and we potentially have 65 million of them that could be put to work..........

If you don't work, you don't get fed - shame it's not the same now!!

[bigpaul]

most farming these days is done on an industrial level, as NR says heavy on man made pesticides and fertilisers, using the "monocropping" method, most of that land would be STERILE without those same man made additives and would take years and years to bring back into a natural balance. natural forms of farming were abandoned years ago in pursuit of higher yields and even higher profits.