Exploring JOHN and PAULS views sensibly

[NorthernRaider]

Lets look at this because it wont do any harm, Can anyone care to start a list of useful books on the very basics of pre industrial age living skills or how to access said knowledge.

For example the BBC has run a very good series with Ruth whats her name doing series like Victorian / Edwardian/ Geogian Farming and is currently doing one in a Castle set in France, its called Secrets of the Castle I think. The BBC often do produce books to back up their educational shows often along side the OU

Also if you look at the Meets and Events at the top of SUK forums you will see a list of skill courses and demonstrations of ancient trad sklls on offer at the Wilderness Gathering.

So lets ENCOURAGE those who wish to prep for iron age or dark age skills and technologies lets help find out hat we can, it still does not mean to have to agree with them but at least you can find out more for yourselves.

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Castle
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Secrets-Castle-D...the+castle
Tudor
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tudor-Monastery-...the+castle
Wartime
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Complete-War...the+castle
Edwardian
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edwardian-Farm-D...the+castle
Victorian Pharmacy
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Victorian-Ph...the+castle

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More skills and crafts and courses

Useful venues and courses
http://www.schoolofancientcrafts.org.uk/
http://www.butserancientfarm.co.uk/adult-workshops/
http://www.craftcourses.com/

Ancient Craft People

Dave Chapman Since 1995 the Bronze Age Foundry has been dedicated to reproducing tools, weapons and artefacts from the Bronze Age http://www.bronzeagefoundry.com

Emily Edwards A freelance prehistoric pottery specialist offering recording, analysis and interpretation advice http://www.prehistoricpot.co.uk

Hector Cole Master arrowsmith and archaeological ironworker http://www.evado.co.uk/Hector%20Cole/index.html

Graham Taylor Experimental Archaeologist/Master Potter http://www.pottedhistory.co.uk

Jacqui Wood Independent researcher and Experimental Archaeologist for over the last 25 years http://www.archaeologyonline.org

John Lord The most experienced British Flintknapper http://www.flintknapping.co.uk

Karl Lee Based in Gloucester, flintknapper and expert in bushcraft http://www.primitive-technology.co.uk.html

Merryn Dineley Demonstrations of the traditional craft of malting & brewing independent.academia.edu/MerrynDineley

Neil Burridge A specialist in reproducing bronze age artifacts using authentic materials and methods http://www.bronze-age-craft.com

Paul Atkin 10 years experience in historical woodware with the pole lathe and an historical re-enactor paulatkin.co.uk

The Potter Man 10 years experience as a ceramic artist, running a studio in North Yorkshire and delivering pottery workshops http://www.thepotterman.co.uk

Will Lord Flintknapping & traditional bow making http://www.beyond2000bc.co.uk

[Steve]

It strikes me, again, that there are enough stainless steel knives, pots and pans in the UK to last for several centuries. Who knows how many broadheads could be made from a single lamp-post ?

[NorthernRaider]

In one of my favourite novels the lead characters after years suddenly realise there is a commodity readily available in insane massive amounts to make arrow heads out of, or even pots n pans EARTH ABIDES by George R Stewart and that commodity is likely to be available for thousands of years.

Copper Alloy Coins Us pennies and cents in the US, 1 & 2 pence pieces in the UK, there must be trillions of each knocking around just waiting to be beaten into arrowheads or melted into copper cook pots.

[Devonian]

A few links to illustrate how easy it would be in the future to start generating electricity on a small scale with no special or materials etc.

Just bear in mind that the first few links below are aimed at school kids, which does show how simple the technology 'can' be, but at the same time, just think how easy it would be to upscale the basic principles, in face it amazes me why for both the hydro and wind turbines, that peoples first choice isn't something simple like a bike wheel, which is a good size, ready balanced and freely spinning on decent bearing....

VERY SIMPLE wind turbine projects:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/education/pd...urbine.pdf

http://www.re-energy.ca/docs/wind-turbine-cp.pdf

http://www.re-energy.ca/docs/wind-turbine-cp.pdf

Improvised Hydro generators:

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2010/03/0...I4VyI1yaAg

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydropow.../?ALLSTEPS

http://makingyourown.ludlowsurvivors.com/WWPG.html

[Jace]

Yep, anything by Ruth whatshername and her mates is good, although the WW2 series seem to skate over topics a bit.

Another similar one was Wartime Kitchen (I think), which has a lot of stuff about pickling, preserves, getting the most out of verg etc.

[bigpaul]

have a look at "tales from the green valley" I think its on youtube, that will give you an idea of how I think our lifestyle will be post collapse especially in the UK. this is the one that I cite as an example more than wartime farm or Edwardian farm or any of the others. think Amish without the religion.

[Tartar Horde]

The ironic thing there is that most decent flint knappers could turn out a point faster out of stone than you could out of scrounged metal etc. With good flint it takes around 20-30 minutes to make a stone point using bifacial technique, even quicker when using "blade technology" ie Microliths. You would definitely need more tools to work the metal into shape, and perhaps some heat even. The only plus side is that metal will be more durable, that is the only benefit metals have, and anyone who has spent time making a stone point, only to have it break with the first miss knows that is a big bonus. As for sharpness the keenest razor blade can't compare to flint or Obsidian. Bone points are more durable than stone ones because they have a certain amount of "give", but take longer to make than stone points. It seems daunting at first to know where to start, but like anything with practice you get faster and better. Give it a try and persevere, and it will all come together.

[NorthernRaider]

TH A question, would you not get more consistency and quality by reshaping copper coins like 2 p pieces into arrow heads rather than flints which every one will be slightly different weights, slightly different shapes etc

[John]

You say, ‘So let’s ENCOURAGE those who wish to prep for iron age or dark age skills and technologies lets help find out what we can, it still does not mean to have to agree with them but at least you can find out more for yourselves.’

No you don’t have to agree, that’s OK with us but please don’t ridicule us just because you don’t agree. You don’t even really want to explore our views sensibly for you always come up with comments that either have nothing to do with what was said, going off topic, which appears to be away with the forum, of totally ignoring what has been said. More like our politicians who never appear to be able answer a question and always answer something that was not asked and hope we are daft enough to forget that they have not answered the original question.
It doesn't mean that we can just pack up and go back to what it was. It took many years, probably centuries of passing it down generation to generation along with the refinements of technology as it has developed.

All our current technology which relies on electricity and computers will be gone. We now have systems that are so complex and interwoven that we will not be able to replicate them; we will not have the people, the knowledge, raw materials or access to cheap easily accessible fuel to run, repair or replace them. It has been years since we had any new technology, all we have had for many years is a rehash or refinements of the basic technology that has was invented some long years ago. There is nothing new, not even in development. Technology is what has got us this far and unfortunately it will be this same technology that will be our downfall if it comes about.

We can’t just leave our technology and go back and do it how we used to. You really have no idea and all this Exploring JOHN and PAULS views sensibly is just plain bovine manure.
Not surprising really as you really are not interested in anything longer term, and what you have said it just a cop out to anyone else as there are this far so few replies, to make it look like we are complete idiots.

A list of useful books, they will not do you or anyone much good unless you even think openly about the possibility of never being able to get back to anywhere near what we have now after SHTF.

And what really is the point in listing all these ancient craft people. You are being silly again. These people might run courses but that again is not we have been saying. We have, to say it again, been trying to get people to look further than the end of their nose. To think the unthinkable, not to prepare for it for I doubt that any one person could, but just to use their brain and give it some unbiased thought. If you are going to prepare then why not consider properly everything that you can. The what if. But I suppose the majority just cannot comprehend that it may go as such.

You mention that very good book Earth Abides and then totally out of context you just pick on the item used for the tips of arrow. Of course this may be one of the things that this society may leave any future one in abundance. But again you detract from the point. Like your colleague on wind turbines. How you going to make all these tools that are shown, or the parts or even the copper wire for the winding. Would you have the time, expertise and even the raw materials. Please don’t say there will be plenty lying about, may be in early years but later they will be gone, broken, worn out, rusted away.

No sad to say may be your incapable of even considering this or as said in more probability some mental block that you just can’t comprehend it ever happening or if it does then you like me will be long gone.

May be only difference is that I consider or at least try to think of future generations.
‘I Pencil’ was mentioned at times, a very good example of how some small item is made and all that is involved.

But again that has been rubbished and not well understood. It reminds me of talk I went to where the speaker was saying that we don’t really listen to who is speaking because our minds are busy thinking of what we want to say. He got round this by getting the new speaker to briefly recap what the previous speaker had said. That way you had to listen. A bit like reading, you read something and your mind goes to what you want to say and so you write a reply but don’t really get what the writer was saying.

To recap, we are not saying this will happen for no one knows. What we are saying is that if you are going to prepare, yes, you can only do what you can or afford, but at least consider all your options. Think the unthinkable now, realistically and it won’t be such a shock if it does happen. OK you don’t it will, I hope not as well but there is still a chance no matter how small.

I know when we moved out of London some years ago we looked at as many risks as we could. Flooding, access, open fires, water etc. etc.

The main one that we couldn't address 100% was the nuclear power station on the Bristol Channel. That we have to live with as we do the risk of nuclear war and RNAS Yeovilton. But the point is you try to consider all the risks and prepare as best you can. You prepare for the worst and hope for the best. And all within your personal budget and views but at least please think about and consider all the options.

That is what we have been trying to achieve but it would seem to no avail.

[NorthernRaider]

John here is something that you definitely do not get and on occasion Big Pau forgets, PEOPLE PREP for DIFFERENT reasons, just try considering that instead or trying to force your opinions on others.

I like many other have no personal interest or desire to plan for going back to dark age living, I like many others choose to prepare for other issues that WE deem of a greater priority.

if you are Paul want to prep for living in a dark age era then good for you, go for it, if its what you want to do then no one is going to stop you. But you must start to respect he fact that many other people are prepping for unemployment, food shortages, industrial action, terror attack, nuclear war, pandemic, emp, repressive government and a few are worried about Zombies.

RESPECT THEIR CHOICES as we respect yours, No one is ridiculing you that's just your own paranoia, prep for what ever you want, tell others what your beliefs are and those who share similar beliefs like BP does will surely contact you, and those who are prepping for something else will do their own thing.

I personally am more concerned about other issues, try understanding survivalism and prepping means different things to different people.

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I think BPs approach over Johns instead of trying to ram his beliefs forcefully BP craftily cherry picks interesting items of pre industrial era skills and crafts and offers those to people, I was fascinated by his knowledge over natural medicines and his startling logic over ironwear cooking pots