Excalibur crossbows

[LAC]

Interesting posts. I don't own an air gun but wondered how powerful one would need to be in ft/lb to be as equivalently powerful (if that's possible) as a real firearm, say like a 22 rifle?

[Mortblanc]

(20 December 2018, 01:49)LAC Wrote: Interesting posts. I don't own an air gun but wondered how powerful one would need to be in ft/lb to be as equivalently powerful (if that's possible) as a real firearm, say like a 22 rifle?

Very simple LAC,

A .177 pellet of 8 grains traveling at 820 fps gives you your 11.95 ft/lb legal limit.

My PCP air gun pushes an 18 grain .22 pellet at 950 fps for 36 ft/lb energy. That is 3x your legal limit with an air gun and still is dwarfed by the .22lr.

A .22LR of 38 grain bullet weight traveling at 1100 fps (a standard load not high speed) gives one 102.5 ft/lb energy.

The high speed loading of 1295 fps gives more than 140 ft/lb energy.

(As one can see that is 4x the power of the air gun that was 3x over your legal limit. 12X the power of a 12lb air gun!!!)

Most shooters in the rest of the world) will consider the .22lr barely adequate for hunting and that is why most shooters consider the 12 pound air gun less than adequate for most hunting.

But consider this, the 12 bore shotgun, or the 20 bore, with a one ounce shot load pushed at 1200 fps (which is considered a target load) creates 1400 ft/lb energy!

Possibly one can see why most people recommend the 12 bore over the .22 for general purpose use and the .22lr over the air gun!

I shoot air guns for practice. When I hunt I skip the .22lr except for squirrel, rabbit and pigeon. Anything larger than that and I jump directly to my shotguns or center fire rifles.

But I always look at history and how people have reacted to SHTF in other eras. Over here we had a world event depression during the 1930s the Great Depression. The financial system collapsed, as is presently predicted for the past 70 years by some book sellers.

If one did not live on a farm and own their land outright things were very bad. Even for those that were prepared for anything 10 years of depression and another 5 years of rationing for WW2 pretty much eliminated all the canned goods and beef jerky!

Your farm animals were your wealth and you did not eat them, you milked them or sold them for beef to raise the little cash they would bring (you still had to have cash to pay your taxes, power, clothes, ect.). That made foraging for wild game very important to the protein supply.

Out of that situation my two grand fathers walked in possession of two firearms each. They lived 1000 miles separated and did not know each other.

Each of them owned a 12 bore repeating shotgun.

Both of them owned a .38 caliber pistol.

Those two firearms were the necessities of survival of SHTF.

There was not a .22lr or air gun of any caliber in sight. And yes air guns were around back then.

They had fed and protected their families with those two firearms for 15 years of SHTF, and continued to do so until their deaths many years latter. When they died they still owned the same firearms.

I got one of the shotguns as inheritance and still use it. I bought a copy of the other and enjoy owning that also. I have others but those two will never leave me.

That is the reason I generally stress that everyone that qualifies for a SGC should have one. You can not own a pistol legally, but you can own a shotgun, the most versatile of firearms, and there is no reason why anyone that calls themselves a prepper, that qualifies to own one, should not.

[CharlesHarris]

(20 December 2018, 18:47)Mortblanc Wrote: ....Over here we had a world event depression during the 1930s the Great Depression...farm animals were your wealth and you did not eat them, you milked them or sold them for beef to raise the little cash they would bring (you still had to have cash to pay your taxes, power, clothes, ect.). That made foraging for wild game very important to the protein supply.

Out of that situation my two grand fathers walked in possession of two firearms each. They lived 1000 miles separated and did not know each other.

Each of them owned a 12 bore repeating shotgun.

Both of them owned a .38 caliber pistol.

Those two firearms were the necessities of survival of SHTF...

...They had fed and protected their families with those two firearms for 15 years of SHTF, and continued to do so until their deaths many years latter. When they died they still owned the same firearms....

The situation was much the same for my grandparents and great-grandparents in rural West Virginia from 1929-1945.

Black powder muzzleloading rifles, shotguns and cap & ball revolvers were very much in common use among the rural poor who couldn't afford modern arms or cartridges. The first revolver I learned to use as a boy was an original 1851 Navy Colt which had been carried by an ancestor during the Civil Way. The family also still used an 1853 Tower .577 rifle-musket which had Confederate heritage and had been run through the Union blockade.

After WW1 surplus Krags and Trapdoor Springfields became common, and some had .45 pistols or revolvers, or war prophy captures which came home in the seabag.
Ownership of Colt and S&W revolvers or a Winchester rifle or shotgun firmly identified you as successful and middle class.

[LAC]

(20 December 2018, 18:47)Mortblanc Wrote:

(20 December 2018, 01:49)LAC Wrote: Interesting posts. I don't own an air gun but wondered how powerful one would need to be in ft/lb to be as equivalently powerful (if that's possible) as a real firearm, say like a 22 rifle?

Very simple LAC,

A .177 pellet of 8 grains traveling at 820 fps gives you your 11.95 ft/lb legal limit.

My PCP air gun pushes an 18 grain .22 pellet at 950 fps for 36 ft/lb energy. That is 3x your legal limit with an air gun and still is dwarfed by the .22lr.

A .22LR of 38 grain bullet weight traveling at 1100 fps (a standard load not high speed) gives one 102.5 ft/lb energy.

The high speed loading of 1295 fps gives more than 140 ft/lb energy.

(As one can see that is 4x the power of the air gun that was 3x over your legal limit. 12X the power of a 12lb air gun!!!)

Most shooters in the rest of the world) will consider the .22lr barely adequate for hunting and that is why most shooters consider the 12 pound air gun less than adequate for most hunting.

But consider this, the 12 bore shotgun, or the 20 bore, with a one ounce shot load pushed at 1200 fps (which is considered a target load) creates 1400 ft/lb energy!

Possibly one can see why most people recommend the 12 bore over the .22 for general purpose use and the .22lr over the air gun!

I shoot air guns for practice. When I hunt I skip the .22lr except for squirrel, rabbit and pigeon. Anything larger than that and I jump directly to my shotguns or center fire rifles.

But I always look at history and how people have reacted to SHTF in other eras. Over here we had a world event depression during the 1930s the Great Depression. The financial system collapsed, as is presently predicted for the past 70 years by some book sellers.

If one did not live on a farm and own their land outright things were very bad. Even for those that were prepared for anything 10 years of depression and another 5 years of rationing for WW2 pretty much eliminated all the canned goods and beef jerky!

Your farm animals were your wealth and you did not eat them, you milked them or sold them for beef to raise the little cash they would bring (you still had to have cash to pay your taxes, power, clothes, ect.). That made foraging for wild game very important to the protein supply.

Out of that situation my two grand fathers walked in possession of two firearms each. They lived 1000 miles separated and did not know each other.

Each of them owned a 12 bore repeating shotgun.

Both of them owned a .38 caliber pistol.

Those two firearms were the necessities of survival of SHTF.

There was not a .22lr or air gun of any caliber in sight. And yes air guns were around back then.

They had fed and protected their families with those two firearms for 15 years of SHTF, and continued to do so until their deaths many years latter. When they died they still owned the same firearms.

I got one of the shotguns as inheritance and still use it. I bought a copy of the other and enjoy owning that also. I have others but those two will never leave me.

That is the reason I generally stress that everyone that qualifies for a SGC should have one. You can not own a pistol legally, but you can own a shotgun, the most versatile of firearms, and there is no reason why anyone that calls themselves a prepper, that qualifies to own one, should not.

Thanks MB for the very informative reply and history lesson.
A SGC is something I've been looking into, and like the OP will need to join a shooting club and start the process. I've heard it's best to go through The British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) when making the application as they can support and lend weight to it.

[Mortblanc]

I am not certain what the "best way" to acquire the SGC is but a brief tour of the subject by google shows that it is a relatively simple process.

You are not actually required to be a gun club member to get the SGC according to the UK website. However I am sure that for an urban dweller that would be an easy justification for ownership under the "need a shotgun" qualification of some areas. According to the government website every subject has the right to own a shotgun if they meet the qualifications which appear to be a clean criminal background and a secure gun cabinet.

You can always buy a better gun cabinet, but you can't fix stupid!

One of the things that will be a show stopper over there, just as it is over here, are the indiscretions of your youth, otherwise known as being young and dumb. Doing stupid things when you were a kid or young adult will remain on ones record for a lifetime.

We have hundreds of thousands of people that are denied firearms ownership for canibus possession charges, simple assaults, simple battery, underage drinking when they were 18, 19 or 20 years old and it has followed them for a lifetime. You do not even need a conviction on your record, the arrest is considered grounds for refusal. So if you once got high, drank some beer, went over to an ex-girlfriends house and peed on your flowers, got into a fight, and tried to run away from the responding officer your SGC application is a waste of time for the rest of your life.

I know one guy that is denied purchase due to being arrested for skinny dipping in the river back in 1968.

Over here all that stuff counts as automatic denial of application, and a new form and new background check is done for each purchase. We do not have a SGC or FAC and every purchase is reviewed against criminal records check.

Concealed carry permits require an even closer investigation and the approval at state and local levels plus the fees, which equal your SGC fees.

I just had renewal of my CCW last week and gathering and submitting the paperwork took all day Monday, a visit to the Sheriff, three checks, two government agencies, and close to $100 US.

The worst part was the new passport photo. Good God I am old and ugly!

At one time there was a train of thought that leaned toward fear that TPTB would come and get your shotgun in SHTF. I think that train of thought has dispelled a bit with the realization that there are not enough police officers to run a proper patrol in "good times" and definitely not enough to come knocking on your door searching for all the weapons in the UK.

They might want to come get your shotgun, but if things are that bad the few police and troops that do exist are going to be too busy to knock on doors in large groups, dressed in body armor. Yes they might come get your shotgun, but chances are they will not, and you will have it to use as needed.

If they do you are no worse off than you would have been otherwise.

You can't score if you don't play.

[LAC]

The other thing MD is that in the UK you need a valid reason for owning a firearm, and it does help if you are already a member of a shooting club, and helps again if a member there, or preferably someone senior there, can support your application (you need to put a referee on your application).

In the UK a valid reason for wanting a SGC would not be for self defence, and if you did use it for self defence this would fall under self defence laws, and whether the use of the weapon for reasons of self defence were proportionate. I think I remember a while ago reading an article of someone who shot an intruder with a shotgun and the judge ruled it was disproportionate because it was too much of an unfair advantage - many people won't agree it was but that's how our laws can be interpreted at times.

[Talon]

To get a shotgun licence as Mort correctly stated you need a secure storage ( cabinet) and as long as you don’t have past offences involving violence or alcohol you’ll get the licence . The FLO will come out. Check the cabinet location and ask a few questions . State that you wish to take up clay shooting . DO NOT mention self defence . It’s a guaranteed outcome of not getting the licence . The FLO’s in my experience are good people .
Getting a firearm is completely different . You need to be in a club or have access to hunting land that warrants the Calibre of firearm you’re applying for . You really need to be in a club though for the probationary period before even applying for a firearms licence . Getting one for hunting is harder .
The short answer is for a shotgun licence the police need to prove you’re unworthy of one . Fore a firearm the emphasis is on the applicant to prove they’re worthy of one .

[Mortblanc]

For the sake of formality we are speaking of shotguns as sporting and food gathering instruments in our context. Which is a legitimate use under UK law.

But many people wish to talk about the social breakdown and failure of the rule of law and then apply todays laws to those scenarios as a one sided arrangement.

We always get into this same logic loop when the conversation involves survival in extreme situation, but then has the restriction of the legal thought process of present time. If ROL is suspended it is suspended for everyone not just the bad guys.

Put what you have to put on the paperwork to legally get the shotgun in your hands. Stay legal.

Start going to law school and debating the goofy legal implications of today when the shotgun is safely in your cabinet.

The legal implications of today have no application to the survival modes of WWOROL. We are talking about survival and survival tools and what one can do to place themselves in a better place in a survival situation.

One might purchase a shotgun to pot rabbits, but nothing says one can not also use it on pigeons, or any other emergency use. Shotguns are very versatile in that regard.

That is the single most important appeal of the shotgun over other tools of the same nature, versatility.