We Need Money

[bigpaul]

(1 April 2012, 11:23)mikebratcher69 Wrote: I see money as a disease people would have to get over fast.

quite right Mike, money has made people greedy and materialistic.

[Skean Dhude]

BP,

People are greedy and materialistic. That isn't the issue though as that has made our society grow and prosper. Our issue is envy where we want something for nothing. Greed makes us work harder. Envy makes us destroy.

[bigpaul]

(1 April 2012, 12:18)Skean Dhude Wrote: BP,

People are greedy and materialistic. That isn't the issue though as that has made our society grow and prosper. Our issue is envy where we want something for nothing. Greed makes us work harder. Envy makes us destroy.

this is a modern thing, i dont remember people being greedy and materialistic in the 50s, people respected each other back then.

[Timelord]

Human society - wether it has reached a definition of "civilization" or not, already has a tried & tested system for this.

1) Barter/exchange
2) Precious metals to represent surplus wealth. Ideally silver as it is easily divisable into relevent amounts. It can be carried in the form of body jewellery and cut into small weighed amounts for trade - if appropriate, ie the receiving party is willing to accept a representation of wealth rather than actual physical resources.
3) Money has 2 forms :-
a) a coin made out of say silver or more uncommonly - gold. This coin is worth not really its face value, but only its physical weight in the precious metal. The reason the precious metal is in the form of a coin, is so a centralised authority can more easily regulate & tax surplus wealth in the community. the coins are issued from a central mint and the tax/bondage system is integral to it. You will see on ancient to medieval coins recovered from the earth, that many are clipped or cut into equal parts. usually these are silver coins. This was part of the system, especially when times were harder. Half or a quarter of a silver coin was woth exactly that by weight. A clipping was probably added to a few whole coins & was a fraction of a Traders generally carried a small set of travelling weighing scales and this system was fair & accurate 99.9% of the time.
b) a coin made out of a non precious metal that is worth its face value rather than its physical weight. This development comes about as a further advancement of the central issuing authority regulatory/tax system. Otherwise the coins are scrap value only and not much use for trade. These coins are the same in representation of wealth as bank notes or I.O.U's.

Money leads to credit, which leads to debt, which leads to servitude & strife. Sound familiar?

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(1 April 2012, 14:04)Timelord Wrote: Human society - wether it has reached a definition of "civilization" or not, already has a tried & tested system for this.

1) Barter/exchange
2) Precious metals to represent surplus wealth. Ideally silver as it is easily divisable into relevent amounts. It can be carried in the form of body jewellery and cut into small weighed amounts for trade - if appropriate, ie the receiving party is willing to accept a representation of wealth rather than actual physical resources.
3) Money has 2 forms :-
a) a coin made out of say silver or more uncommonly - gold. This coin is worth not really its face value, but only its physical weight in the precious metal. The reason the precious metal is in the form of a coin, is so a centralised authority can more easily regulate & tax surplus wealth in the community. the coins are issued from a central mint and the tax/bondage system is integral to it. You will see on ancient to medieval coins recovered from the earth, that many are clipped or cut into equal parts. usually these are silver coins. This was part of the system, especially when times were harder. Half or a quarter of a silver coin was worth exactly that by weight. A clipping was probably added to a few whole coins & was a fraction of a whole, measured by weight. Traders generally carried a small set of travelling weighing scales and this system was fair & accurate 99.9% of the time.
b) a coin made out of a non precious metal that is worth its face value rather than its physical weight. This development comes about as a further advancement of the central issuing authority regulatory/tax system. Otherwise the coins are scrap value only and not much use for trade. These coins are the same in representation of wealth as bank notes or I.O.U's.

Money leads to credit, which leads to debt, which leads to servitude & strife. Sound familiar?

[bigpaul]

if there is a big event, i was hoping to get away from money, politicians, govt,taxes and big brother.

[mikebratcher69]

Anything only has a value if its deemed to be a status item or desired object.
For example a ferrari is worth hundreds of thousands of pounds because it is a status object, as is gold, silver and diamonds etc...
On their own these objects are worthless.
Money in any form is the start of control.
It puts a value on anything and anyone.
Itself a £10 note is probably worth 20p if you take into account printing etc...
You are only able to exchange it for £10 worth of goods because tptb say you are and tptb say its worth that much.
In reality after shtf money will take on its proper value so will gold and silver I.E. nothing.
What can you do with gold and silver?
You come to me and say "I'll give you 1 gold ounce for 1 chicken"
I'd say no because that gold is worth nothing to me.
For something to have a value and worth, people have to agree that it is worth something in the first place.
not just one or two people but everyone.
In todays world a solid gold sovereign is worth a few hundred quid because somebody says it is, they can just as easily say its worth mnothing and now toothpicks are the new currency and if everbody agrees, usualy the people with the most toothpicks that will be the new desired item and deemed precious.

[bigpaul]

i cant see money or gold or silver being worth anything after TSHF, i'm talking major event here, no govt or state left its everyone fend for yourself time! so unless money, gold or silver puts food in my belly then its worthless, if all the dealers, markets etc have all gone the way of the dinosaur then money, gold and silver IS worthless, the only way you will get food is by growing it, breeding it , hunting and trapping it, or by bartering any you have left over.

[Timelord]

Exactly! Representation of wealth by media such as gold or silver or any other is only worth anything if there is a surplus within the society and then only to those that can afford to hold a representation of the surplus. Without that, it is as you say - worthless.
I see two conflicting avenues of approach to the situation here. 1) is the approach to it ATSHTF in a big way - So no surplus = needs no artificial wealth storage/representation
and 2) ATSHTF but later when some local level of society forms and starts to rebuild. Once a surplus is produced by the society, then some type of wealth representation may be of value to a limited degree. -- or may not be required as seen fit at the time.

Money is a different ballgame and is the enterprise of social elites for population control & their own financial gain. You could argue that a more complex civilization could not run efficiently or even exist without money, but that scenario is not really the crux of the debate here.
Regards, TL.

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After reading the posts again, I have another point of view (or opinion - yes again - groan!!)

If we are talking about PTSHTF, then don't think in terms of money and equivalent value. Money is artificial... A ferrari is not worth £150,000 to me because I have no desire for it. It is worth whatever it is worth to me. Probably PSHTF, then nothing at all, except for the petrol in the tank and any other parts I could cannabalise off it. Paper money will take on its real value & that is as kindling. After all, paper money is only an I.O.U. linked to the itemised wealth stored in the nations central bank account.
An important point is that a status symbol etc is not in reality worth an amount in pounds. The pounds are artificial. It is only worth what the person wishing to trade it for and the person wishing to aquire it believe and then again only after a compromise is reached or not. So What you are really doing is bartering using an artificial counting system to represent real world goods or labour. real world goods or labour are classed as wealth. wealth is not money. Money is only an abstract representation of it as a surplus.
A nations regulated money value is based on an amount of gold held by the nations central bank (This is somewhat corrupted over recent decades and is part of the reason for the present economic meltdown). This is a nationwide reference or a standard that all monetary transactions can be standardised against. The Gold Standard as such. (Ask Gordon Brown for clarification - lol)
So gold or silver coins as originally devised are in value worth their own measured weight. The shape & stamping are just a regulatory issue. So they are physically the same as the precious metal in bar or any other form for trade.
Now if the nation as an entity ceases to exist, then this standard collapses with it - as has happened times over in history. Then all that matters is food, fuel & shelter etc. When & IF some order is restored even just locally and a community surplus is generated over time, then precious metals, namely silver can be used to represent any wealth created that is surplus and traded - if necessary. Weighing out small amounts of silver as value representation for trade is not a monetary system and does not cause inflation or come with any of the other sinister effects of a regulated money system. Any material could be used instead of silver in theory, but it has to be fairly rare or if say it was crimped beer bottle tops, then they would be easily obtainable and so would have no real value.
Happy musings & I try to cover the basics for all, I am not trying to teach any grandma's to suck eggs. TL.

[mikebratcher69]

I think once as you say the surplus goods comes in and a representation of that comes in,the only way around it is to store your own stuff in your own vault and then you wouldnt need a representation of it. you could arange a trade of one goods for the other face to face.
then swap. I think because we are used to the monetary or value of gold and silver it would be hard to regress back to barter without using i.o.u notes like on the old bank notes you sold goods, people then gave you a bank note for them which you took to the bank and they then gave you gold and silver I think something like that anyway.

[Scythe13]

Basic economics shows that something is only worth the maximum someone will exchange for it.

But considering society throughout history has seen value in precious metals, I believe we'll go back to that. My evidence.....all human history. Since man was on this earth.