Pulling the trigger.

[BDG]

(26 November 2013, 10:49)Skean Dhude Wrote:

(25 November 2013, 23:33)BDG Wrote: Killing some one - you either can do it, or you cannot do it. There is no might.

Under normal circumstances this is true. People can make a choice and if the other party follows the law then that is the end of it. If the other party doesn't you are dead.

After an event though you don't have the option and you will be forced to do things you would not do now.

So now, as it is all theory it is might for most of us. Some won't, some will.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that after a few months (could even be days or weeks) people will change. I do think that it is those in that now place themselves in the 'would not' camp that could have their numbers thinned proportionally a lot more, but I would wager that population does not make plans for what to do in any emergency than the people in the other camp.

[Scythe13]

Please can I just address the elephant in the room.

To be able to place yourself into a genuine mindset style situation, you do need to have the capability.

You must have a shotgun, or other black powder style device, to be able to have the capability. If you do not have that, then this thread is just a bit of ego-masterbation. However, looking at it from a, could I shoot an arrow side...that's a very different skill set, and the odds of that working out are slim to none. What about stabbing a person? Again, pick up a knife and while holding it, imagine there is an angry mother in front of you and she's gung-ho for your food. You know she's a mother, because she's got one of those weird sling things across her body, and you can hear her baby crying on her back. Now, with that knife in your hand, could you? You tell her to stop time and again, you pull the knife forward to scare her off, she stands there, baby on her back crying, and she says to you "Go on then, kill me." Truthfully, could you?

Unless you have the capability to pull a deadly trigger, this thread is just self gratification. If you change trigger to a hand held weapon, you need to be able to have the mental edge where you are able to, let's say, beat someone to death, but also the physical capability. Same with stabbing, slashing, and the alike.

Once someone hits the floor, it doesn't mean they're dead. Not by a long shot. So could you then complete an execution cut, shot, stamp, or whatever?

Hide all that macho survivalist stuff and imagine it from a real situation. When walking down the street, look at a person, up close, and think about if you could kill them where they stand (obviously don't do it, it's just a mental exercise). Consider the thought that the person may well have children, a husband or wife. That is someone's son or daughter, father or mother, aunt or uncle. Because those are the kinds of thoughts you'll have once you've done it.

You may feel queezy and vomit once you actually do it, in real life. But that is a normal reaction for someone not matured and conditioned for the act. You will probably have nightmares. That is normal.

If you think you can pull the trigger, consider that in WW1 (it may have been WW2), the troops only had an 18% fire rate. Meaning that only 18 men out of every 100 actually shot their guns. So just picking up a gun and having an enemy infront of you shooting, just means that there's an 82% chance you WILL NOT shoot.

In Vietnam many of the soldiers shot ABOVE the heads of the VC by an average of 2-3 meters.

If all these soldiers have not been able to shoot, I think this thread needs greater consideration and study on the subject. Plus a lack of bravado and seeming weak. Truth is, we are human and we frequently will battle with our emotions and pre-conditioned selves.

[Highlander]

The situation I found myself in was in Northern Ireland, a man was firing a five shot pistol by just showing his arm around a corner, then showing himself to shout abuse, he had emptied the weapon a few times at us.

My commander told me that the next time he showed himself I was to take him out.

I have always been a good shot, yet the first bullet I sent his way missed, simply because of nerves and shakes, the second bullet found its mark

For someone to do this without training, most would need to get themselves very mad,.. to do this while calm and quiet takes someone very different, maybe even someone none of us want to become

Training at least settles your mind, I missed the first time, simply because it was the first time, I could see the results before it happened,... and,..training doesn't prepare you for the time spent after you kill, I didn't sleep at all that night

What it has done for me is told me that I could do this again, the saying ` once you kill the next is easier`, is correct,.. not that anyone wants to do that, but once done the uncertainty has been removed, and you are then prepared as well as trained

[Midnitemo]

up close and personal is always going to be much tougher physically and mentally than to remotely pull the trigger , the last thing you want to be doing is talking to somebody you may need to kill and yes putting someone down is not usually the end of it , not looking forward to this so lets hope its not in my lifetime.

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i think the figures s13 is quoting suggesting people are reluctant to shoot at people maybe misleading...i suggest the ww1 figure is more about the rank and file rarely getting to close with each other and the damage being done by artillery....and vietnam i'd suggest that the first round would have been aimed and the rest of the burst just walked of target... some vietnam vets were horribly abused on the return so i'd think it's a comfortable myth to tell everyone you aimed off...11,000 round's per kill!!!!!!!! the rq would go off his head and the rattly carts and trucks would never keep up.

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There's a reason why the british army didn't get a battle rifle with full auto capability til the mid 80's

[bigpaul]

depends on the circumstances I suppose, but POST SHTF and WROL first thing I would say is can you(or your adversary) back off and walk away?? if either of you can then do it but if not, it may be a case of you or him/her, in which case you may not have any option and you are no good to your family or group dead, so get in first and make it final. you can worry about the guilty feeling afterwards.

[Midnitemo]

and even then they limited you from going rambo by making the mag drop out all over the shop...lol...you had to tape a mag in situ....the bean counters would do anything to stop you blazing away.

[Midnitemo]

i did the apwt dry more times than live!

[bigpaul]

(27 November 2013, 18:00)Midnitemo Wrote: i did the apwt dry more times than live!

sorry, I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about!!

[Midnitemo]

sorry BP i forget the acronyms lose people , apwt= annual personal weapons test.....RQ = regimental quartermaster rattly carts and trucks = royal corps of transport(royal logistic's corp now)

[Scythe13]

(27 November 2013, 15:56)Midnitemo Wrote: i think the figures s13 is quoting suggesting people are reluctant to shoot at people maybe misleading.

You're right, just rechecked, it was WW2 and it was a battle average of between a 15-20% shoot rate.

Men Against Fire - S.L.A. Marshall
Another highly recommended read, from a phenomenally well researched basis.

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This is a good resource: http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm

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Forgot to mention a quick note on the research, the research was done regarding soldiers that were involved in small arms combat.