Debating the debaters

[NorthernRaider]

Let me clarify my point a bit if a group of people democratically CHOOSE to contribute to a community fund or scheme and / or democratically CHOOSE to offer their Labour to the community freely that is definitely FAIR. But FORCING people to pay for public services they do not want and will never use is neither fair nor just.

Look at the obscenity that is the welfare state, Those who pay the most tax through hard word etc are normally those least eligible to claim from the system, but those who make it a life times career living off benefits pay in almost nothing. That is simply immoral and wrong. The welfare system should be paid for by those who use it the most. BUT It should only be paid for by people who WANT to be part of a welfare system, those who do not want to participate should not be forced to and of course then they would not be able to use it.

Every socialist scheme ever devised becomes corrupted, bloated and abused that is a fact, Gimme back the huge amounts of tax I pay each year and I will decided on what medical and welfare system I want for my family, FAIR and JUST.

TL is right in his appraisal but I would add ANY WELFARE or HEALTHCARE or SOCIAL STATE system should and must be based upon VOLUNTARY membership. Only issues like Defence , Roads, etc should be covered by national taxation.

[bigpaul]

UNLESS and UNTIL we get a change of govt to a different form of govt, not a lot we can do about it is there? waste of breath.

[NorthernRaider]

True, so true, anyhow its definitely time we stopped the political chitchat before we start arguing, we all have valid political opinions ( mine being right )

[bigpaul]

I think we all agree that the govt we have got-and that includes ALL the 3 main parties- is crap.

[Midnitemo]

I think unless you're a very high rate tax payer you're getting a good deal(obviously not as good a deal as those who don't pay but there's nothing stopping you living like that if you so wish)....it only takes one bout of sickness and you could use many ten's of thousands of nhs resources...i pay 5k a year income tax and just over 1k in council tax....i know the secondary education budget alone is more than that for one child per year....systems not perfect but i think you'll find its propped up by the higher tax payers rather than the average joe in the street with 2.3 kids and a 26k a year job and 100k mortgage....i know for a long time my tax bill hasn't quite covered my usage and yes i get pissed of at the way some strange minorities seem to get a disproportionate amount of the fiscal spend.

[NorthernRaider]

Mo consider this

When they separated the old rates into council tax and water bills they kept the council tax at the same amount as the old rates bill, the water bill then became another major bill in its own right. They should have cut Council tax by the amount the set for water bills.
Rip off.

When they changed rates into council tax my old houses rates bill went overnight from £94 PA rates to TWO x £640 under the Poll Tax. Which then evolved into council tax which now thanks to labour and our council is now over £1400 and £400 for the water.
Rip Off

We once over were able to pay a voluntary extra type cannot remember its name (ERS) but when they scrapped it they did not refund the money.

Cut my 40% income tax and 4% NI and I will gladly buy private medical insurance and pay for my kids schooling, that is FAIR and JUST.
Why should people who have NO children have to pay the tax to fund schools, its rip off after rip off.

[Midnitemo]

I agree its not fair and its not right....i'm a 20%tax payer just and probably not for much longer as the govt keeps reducing the threshhold(i purposely try to stay a 20% payer by refusing overtime putting my annual bonus into my pension as a voluntary contribution etc etc...i may feel more aggreived as you do if i was paying 40% this is predominantly the reason why i went from casually thinking the country may collapse under huge debts to actually doing something about it(prepping) as i can't see how this incresead welfare spend can be maintained ad infinitum....it would be a nice idea to only pay for what you use but imagine the chains of bureaucracy that would entail and the potential cock ups we'd be innundated with....we really would widen the gap between haves and have nots, starving abandoned kids shanty towns disease would again become rife.

[NorthernRaider]

FYI guys the peace loving democratic socialists are currently rioting in Brussels against Austerity and the EU See the THREATS section

[Devonian]

(4 April 2014, 15:43)Midnitemo Wrote: it would be a nice idea to only pay for what you use but imagine the chains of bureaucracy that would entail and the potential cock ups we'd be innundated with....we really would widen the gap between haves and have nots, starving abandoned kids shanty towns disease would again become rife.

But it would also give the current underlife in society one hell of a kick up the arse, when they realise they can now longer sit at home all day with their Sky TV Subscriptions; smoking and drinking; wearing their designer tat - ummm do I sound bitter and twisted!!

[Midnitemo]

I'm with you there Devonian , if its too comfortable an existence on benefits then where is the incentive to go out and work....benefits should keep a roof over your head and put basic food on the table..nothing more....if you choose to increase your family whilst on benefits then you should get by on the current rate not be given more of anything... by this I mean not a bigger house/flat no more money or tokens etc.