Excalibur crossbows

[Midnitemo]

Another vote for weihrauch , gun no 2 and 3 were a BSA airsporter and a Webley & Scott venom , no 4 was an HW 80 which I still have and love but there have been others of the same brand come and gone over time but i have recently gone over to .177 from .22 with an HW 99s which is a bit of a departure from the previous Weihrauch models as its not hewn from a solid block of granite like all my previous ones seemed to be , weighs a spritely 7lbs scoped compared to over 10 for the HW 80 , gone .177 for the flatter trajectory as discussed lots on here before.

[Mortblanc]

Most comparisons are sketchy at best. If you compare the two calibers when they create the same ft/lb energy the results are way less dramatic than when comparing a 7 lb .22 and a 12lb .177!

When you actually go to a trajectory chart and compare the .177 vs. the .22 at equal energy level you will find that the difference between the two trajectories out to 30 meters is so close to the same that your "wobble factor" covers more target area than the difference in trajectory.

We are talking less than the diameter of a .17 pellet difference. 3 mm @ 30 meters.

That is using the standard "hobby pellet" of 7 grains in .177 and 11 grains in .22 and comparing them both at 12 ft/lb.

I went with the .177 on my HW30 for one reason alone and that was cost of ammo. I knew I was going to be shooting the crap out of this thing and ammo cost was going to be a consideration. .22 pellets cost me 3X as much as .177.

I am shooting Beeman wadcutter .177 pellets indoors at less than one cent U.S. per shot. They are giving me adequate 10 meter accuracy but when I move outside I must change to RWS hobby pellets to maintain decent groups at 25M.

When I ordered my HW30 they sent me a .22 by mistake and I sent it back, but not before I shot a dozen 5 shot groups with various .22 pellets I had on hand. I found the .22 more accurate in general and less picky then the .177 I replaced it with.

I would have kept the .22 except for the ammo cost issue and the fact the the HW30 in .22 only produces a miserly 425 fps.

Even at that rate it smashes into an indoor target trap like a freight train.

The .177 at 650 fps makes a nice little "ping" and does not even bounce the trap.

[Midnitemo]

The HW 80 and the HW99s are both making around 11ft lb , my preferred pellet for the 80 is an eley wasp at a little over 14 grains is leaving the muzzle at just shy of 600 fps , the 99 is on wasps also at a shade over 8 grains and near to 850 fps , i zero both at 30 meters and find the .22 is acceptable between 22 and 35m without using hold over/under whilst the .177 is better at 19m to 38m..flatter shooting just means easier to operate, .177 seems to kill equally as effectively as .22 and as you said .177 has an edge on price of pellets , not as significant as your saving but about £1.50 a tin here in the UK.

[Mortblanc]

I just looked it up and found that if I buy RWS hobby pellets I can get the .22 11 grain pellets for 3 1/2 cents each and the 7 grain .177 pellets cost me two cents each. So the .22 in that brand is almost twice as pricey no matter what the exchange rate.

That is one reason I am shooting the penny a pop pellets indoors. At 10 meters I am not good enough to tell the difference especially when even the cheap Beemans all go in the same hole.

One big factor I have to deal with is that air guns are still considered toys over here, which is one reason there are few restrictions on them. As such the gun shops ignore them and their ammo.

Most people buy cheap air guns from the discount stores and their ammo at the same place. Your choices are from Daisy or Crossman with sometimes one of the super duper hyper-speed offerings from Gamo that they use to get their blistering speed reading but have no use in the real world.

None of these pellets will give me any kind of acceptable accuracy. That is not just the result of one gun, but across my entire selection of rifles and pistols.

For that reason serious air gunners have to add a hefty shipping fee to the cost of their pellets if they want ammo from the quality air gun supporters. I usually wind up adding bulk purchases of pellets when I purchase other accessories and often "top off" a purchase with pellets if the company has free shipping for a minimum purchase.

Some of the shelves in my house sag a bit.

[Chief Broom]

I mentioned in an earlier post I had a weihrauch hw80 on my shopping list, Talon said it would be a good idea to have a uprated spring available [thanks] firstly I would like to know which spring and where from. I don't want more power to the detriment of longevity and usability but a modest increase would be useful. I understand that weihrauch rifles are built for more power and they have been reduced for the UK- bit like where motorcycles have had bhp reduced to suit local legistlation. Im not into any complicated tuning but just fitting a spring would be within my capabilities!


PS had to smile at Mortblancs sagging shelves! mine do with fishing gear.

[Mortblanc]

Yes your HW80 will come with a reduced power UK spring. Over here they are rated at 1K fps out of the box, and that is with a standard 8 grain lead pellet. Since the HW80 is being reduced in power it would be easier to restore that power than to bump up the power of a weaker offering.

Pyramid Air ships to GB I believe but they will not ship a part that conflicts with British law. Still, the Vortek kits come with a variety of caps, spacers and washers of various thicknesses so one can reach the proper power level inside that legal limit +- ???

https://www.pyramydair.com/a/Accessories..._Kits/1347

There are also "air gun tuners" that produce kits for rebuilding air rifles there in the UK.

Air Arms offers the Tinbum kits so one might try there although they will certainly offer the 12lb limited kits.

Often the installation of a new tuned kit will be a surprising change since what one thinks they have might not be all the power a legal limit kit will provide, along with the smoother operation of custom parts inside.

I do know some folks find industrial spring makers that have extensive offerings of industrial springs which will match the diameter and strength of most standard air gun springs and they can be ordered in random length. Find one with a couple of coils more than your present spring and keep it as a backup.

And one can always bump up their stock spring. That is usually done by adding a plastic spacer either around the piston guide at the front of the spring, or at the base of the spring where it butts against the rear of the tube. I have seen 50-75 fps gained with spacers.

The spacer against the base of the tube sometimes causes cocking problems but the nylon washer in the piston tube is usually not a problem. Those Vortek kits come with a variety of those spacers and washers.

At any rate when you bump a spring to higher power and approach that 1000 fps mark you must go for a balance of power rather than raw speed. You increase your power level by going to a heavier pellet at less than 1000 fps. With a more powerful rifle you move to a heavier pellet and keep it just below the sound barrier to maintain accuracy and stability of the pellet.

A flatter trajectory is not the goal at that point, because of the loss of accuracy due to instability of the pellet.

So you find yourself trying to hit that "sweet spot" where one has more than "standard power" but not passing the 1K fps stability threshold. A 10, 11, 12 or even a 15 grain .177 pellet may be needed.

If you try to hit that spot you only have about 150-175 fps to play with by mixing and matching pellet weight to speed. You will hear all kinds of screaming on the forums about newbies that installed a stronger spring and it ruined their accuracy. They have simply worked for speed rather than moving away from the discount store pellets and working for the best balance in their rifles.

With my PCP rifles I have moved to 16, 18, and 20 grain pellets and maintain a speed of about 900-950 fps. A springer that will do that does considerable bouncing and hopping about in its effort to shake itself to death. It will also kill a scope in short order. I have one 1k springer that stings my face due to vibration every time I pull the trigger. It is not pleasant at all!

And with an increase in power level there is that increase in self destruction potential, as well as increased cocking effort. 50-60 lb cocking effort is now common and most of the rifles with "moderators" are not really moderating anything they are offering a longer barrel with a great big handle to help overcome the tremendous spring inside the rifle.

[Chief Broom]

Thanks Mortblanc that was very interesting/useful, I will check out pyramid and vortec sites. I haven't bought the rifle yet so am a bit ahead of myself [jumping the gun] but will look forward to familiarising myself with its characteristics and deciding whether to leave it be or uprate.

[Mortblanc]

BTW, up there in Scotland everything must be registered, even air rifles.

It brings on one of those situations where if you must register everything you might as well get the shotgun first, then add the air gun to the SGC.

You will find a good used shotgun to be cheaper than the HW80.

[Talon]

I mentioned earlier that I'm not a fan of Titan springs in older guns . I'm not . They really did use softer springs back in the day . The Titan is a quality Spring though and will be fine in a rifle like the 80 . Just fitting a Titan will get the rifle well over the limit .
I suggested you buy an aftermarket spring to store Broom . It really isn't worth the risk of having an unregistered firearm while the rule of law still applies , by all means fit it and see what power its generating . Then remove it and store .
The big problem with an 80 is keeping it under the 12ftlb limit . The single most important item you should own after getting an air rifle is a chronograph . Not only to ensure you're legal ,but to test results after any work carried out and to check the results of different pellets . A chrono is an absolute must and you can pick a barrel mounted one like I have for £50 . It's a must have purchase , especially in a country like ours with strict air gun laws . Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law and the HW80 has a well known reputation . More than any other springer in the uk and the police are well aware of it .
The standard Weihrauch Spring and piston seal are both very well made . Mort mentioned Tinbum kits . I have one in my HW99 . And a Tinbum top hat in my .177 Webley mk3 . I highly rate them .
There really is a vast wealth of knowledge on the net regarding the 80 Broom . Tinbum kits and springs are available from eBay .

[Chief Broom]

Thanks Mortblanc /Talon I have a greater understanding now. I wasn't planning on using a rifle over the 12ftlb limit until a complete break down of law and order! As recommended i'll keep a uprated spring stashed -and also get busy acquiring licences. Cheers again for the info!