NR wants to buy a stealth aerial for his CB

[NorthernRaider]

(4 November 2012, 01:28)Bug_out_Bag Wrote: Ha! Ha! So pretty close to a DV27 on a baking tray then!

1/CB is currently NOT a waste of time for ALL preppers! It's a shame that you find it so!

It's also a good way to put people off investigating comms making sweeping statements like this!

2/ How do you know it's not worth jumping through the hoop? As far as I'm aware, ham radio is not just about repeaters!!!

3/ PMR 446 is really useful to preppers!

4/ A PSU won't help you if the grid goes down pshtf! Doesn't sound like it will help you get much benefit now either!!!

5/ Perhaps you really should flog your kit and forget comms.

Seems to me LS and Paul in the comms threads have both indicated what could be of best use to us and how to set sytems up, best buys for different things etc etc etc

It's really detrimental to the further encouragement of others expanding their preps to include comms when you post like this!

1 I believe CB is a waste of time in the current environment, if you get a system up and working its just full of retards and foul mouth yobs, it MAY be useful after TSHTF providing other preppers are close by, ignore all this talk about skipping signals off the ionisphere that is often only a temporay phenonema. Its range is severely limited and in a survival situation you do not want to be driving up the nearest hill looking for a suitable spot to try and get a signal out. It is not a SHAME I find it so its just a simple statement of fact as to the limited use of radios for me, could be fine for others.

People can make there own choices and if they have a brain they will investigate thoproughly if CB is for them, for some it will be, for others it wont.

2 Because I have looked into it, first I followed the ham radios lead organisation specific intstructions on doing a basic course, they directed me to TWO ham clubs in this area who they informed me hold regular training courses. I contacted both and neither do courses.
Then on investigation I find that in many BUT NOT ALL systems they rely on repeater stations to get messages more than a few miles, repeater stations are the weak link in my opinion if it needs a repeater its no use after the SHTF. The other bigger more powerful kit can reach far further but cost a great deal more and often involves huge great come and find me aerials, again for me personally its not worth the expense or effort for such little return. Especially when I can just go to an RV or Mail drop.

3 PMR 446 is useful in limited effective range it may be good for calling the kids in for tea but in built up areas its only good for a few hundred FEET in many cases, same again for wooded ground or hilly areas, it CAN be made useful by tewaking some rigs up to 7 watts and fitting a better antenna as documented on the forum, Again in its basic simple form it does not cut the mustard. Preppers need simple reliable kit that does thejob straight out the box , without licence, mods, hugh great aerials or having to hang off the conservatory roof to get the signal out. My spoilt brats two PMR 446s fully charged could NOT get a signal from one side of his school to the other, the building absorbed the signal, I was in the top carpark standing outside the van, he was at the other side of the school no more than 500 yards away by the main entrance and he could not hear me. Inside the building it was even worse.

4 A valid point these CB handsets eat conventional batteries, rechargables last no time at all, so to make it work for any length of time you need a PSU, and you are 100% right that after TSHTF unless I have an expensive genny the PSU will be useless, so its another negative towards CB radio.

5 I dont give up so easy i will continue to explore all possibilities, but in general I will not include radios as part of my kit as they fall down on far to many issues. Power consumption, range, reliability, useablity, practicality etc. If I cant make it work to an acceptable level I'll flog it to a technogeek

LS and Paul have indeed done a great deal of valuable research on RC, Its very useful information on kit choice, but it has prompted me to explore and expose the HUGE shortcomings involved in RC.

Indeed as I explained to AL on the phone yesterday I deliberately posedt my question in a very simple, clear and concise form that many new survivalists would post , in seeking to BUY an aerial to fit a clearly defined criteria, for a specific job. Read post number 1 again, and as with many questions on telecoms our technogeeks simply ignore the question and write replies they think the poster wants to read and ignores the actual question posted.

Guys the RC section is for many people not just me a technical nightmare LS's research done with contributions from others on the forum has done much to clarify and simplify the subject, AL will confirm that LS's research hangs in pride of place in my office for easy access. But RC is neither simple, definately as far from reliable as you can get, grossly over complicated, expensive and for my group fails well short of being a worthwhile expense, It probably works ever so well for a radio hobbyist, but its got to many shortcomings for a novice prepper with a limited budget or technical expertise.

I stand by my finding for my group, I do NOT want hulking great aerials in my garden, I want them concealed in my loft, yet I recieved contradictory advice on horizonatal dipoles that could cause issues for new preppers, I do not EVER want prepper comms reliant on repeaters, especially repeaters controlled by another organisation, I do not want to have to drive half way up the peninnes and stand on the roof of my van to get a signal out, I do not want close range PMR radios to fail to get a signal through only one building. I do not want a 30 ft container of AA batteries in my garden because rechargables dont last 300 minutes.

Not for me cos I'm capable of adapting but the research for a SIMPLE, RELIABLE, Semi LONG RANGE radio system that does not eat batteries, require daft antenna or repeaters must go on.
Sorry if I've upset our technogeeks but I have to look at the bigger picture.
NR
NR

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My definition of the perfect prepper 2 way radio

It is hand portable
Can accept quick fit longer antenna
Has a minimum power of 4 watt and can do 12 watts
Has 27 FM 27 Cept and 10 meter Ham
Can broadcast for at least 90 minutes on one set of Nicads or Nimhs
Can reach 10 miles in an heavily built up area / wooded area / hilly area
Does not use repeaters
Does use Channel numbers not frequencies
Can do AM / FM
Does not require licencing.

For ordinary every day god fearing folk a radio in a PA world needs to be as simple as a cellphone.

[NorthernRaider]

Oh god my reply looks terribly preachy and condecending, its not meant too be like that, honest, its supposed to look much more like a gentle explenation of the issue from my own viewpoint, but instead it looks like an attack or slur on the hard working technogeeks.

[Prepper1]

Have you tried connecting it to the water pipes in your house? whenever I cant get a decent radio signal I do just that.
It is however used as an electrical earth also for your household electrics in case of some item short circuiting but I'm sure you could fit some sort of isolator or blow out fuse between your rig and the pipes so if a surge happened it'd just blow the fuse and not your rig.
I'm not sure if it would work for c.b's but it works as a huge Ariel for a normal radio....Might be worth a play...

[NorthernRaider]

(4 November 2012, 12:30)Prepper1 Wrote: Have you tried connecting it to the water pipes in your house? whenever I cant get a decent radio signal I do just that.
It is however used as an electrical earth also for your household electrics in case of some item short circuiting but I'm sure you could fit some sort of isolator or blow out fuse between your rig and the pipes so if a surge happened it'd just blow the fuse and not your rig.
I'm not sure if it would work for c.b's but it works as a huge Ariel for a normal radio....Might be worth a play...

I believe that if I have learned from what our radio experts tell me that if you just add length of wire to the aerial of a two way radio it screw up the standing wave ration and buggers the thing in the process. From what I understand antenna must be cut to a precisde length to match the frequency band the radio broadcasts on.

[Bug_out_Bag]

(4 November 2012, 12:13)NorthernRaider Wrote: Oh god my reply looks terribly preachy and condecending, its not meant too be like that, honest, its supposed to look much more like a gentle explenation of the issue from my own viewpoint, but instead it looks like an attack or slur on the hard working technogeeks.

NR, Setting up comms can be frustrating as I think anyone would agree! I don't want to fall out with you about this! I was just trying to stop other readers of this thread dismissing comms. I understand your frustration with it, I think everyone interested in comms on this forum understands that it can be frustrating and is very pleased to try and help you gain the maximum benefit from your kit. I think you know that. I don't think anyone here will take your explanation as preachy or condescending, they will read it for what it is as I did.

[Prepper1]

(4 November 2012, 12:54)NorthernRaider Wrote:

(4 November 2012, 12:30)Prepper1 Wrote: Have you tried connecting it to the water pipes in your house? whenever I cant get a decent radio signal I do just that.
It is however used as an electrical earth also for your household electrics in case of some item short circuiting but I'm sure you could fit some sort of isolator or blow out fuse between your rig and the pipes so if a surge happened it'd just blow the fuse and not your rig.
I'm not sure if it would work for c.b's but it works as a huge Ariel for a normal radio....Might be worth a play...

I believe that if I have learned from what our radio experts tell me that if you just add length of wire to the aerial of a two way radio it screw up the standing wave ration and buggers the thing in the process. From what I understand antenna must be cut to a precisde length to match the frequency band the radio broadcasts on.

that'd be me buggered them "precise" takes me 4 or 5 goes to measure a bit of wood for cutting....

[NorthernRaider]

(4 November 2012, 13:30)Bug_out_Bag Wrote:

(4 November 2012, 12:13)NorthernRaider Wrote: Oh god my reply looks terribly preachy and condecending, its not meant too be like that, honest, its supposed to look much more like a gentle explenation of the issue from my own viewpoint, but instead it looks like an attack or slur on the hard working technogeeks.

NR, Setting up comms can be frustrating as I think anyone would agree! I don't want to fall out with you about this! I was just trying to stop other readers of this thread dismissing comms. I understand your frustration with it, I think everyone interested in comms on this forum understands that it can be frustrating and is very pleased to try and help you gain the maximum benefit from your kit. I think you know that. I don't think anyone here will take your explanation as preachy or condescending, they will read it for what it is as I did.

I certainly dont want to fall out with anyone on the forum, definately not and your comments were both valid and welcome, We are making progress on radio comms BUT there are still (for myself and some others of a none technical outlook) major issues and short comings to be addressed and answers found. Comms are a multi faceted subject which involves RVs, Letter drops, regular meets as well as telecoms. I know, understand and appreciate many preppers also have a passion for radio telephony, but not all.

I look at it the same way I look at all prepper kit from back packs to bows to wood burning stoves to vehicles, IS IT EFFECTIVE, RELIABLE, AFFORDABLE, SIMPLE TO SET UP AND USE, and does it do what we want it to do AFTER TSHTF fan when people will be frightened, possibly in shock, uncertain and hesitant, anxious as hell, possibly tired, maybe injured or far from home.

They need with a radio to be able to pick it up, turn it on, select a simple channel, and know they can reach at least 10 miles across a city, forest or hill to their families. They dont wont and shouldnt nned top be climbing into lofts, putting up 40 foot masts in their garden, trying to find weird frequencies, seeking working repeaters, changing batteries every twenty minutes etc etc.

Theres far more preppers with no interest or expertise in technology than there are techno geeks, preppers esp new ones need clear, concise, simple , reliable items of kit to help sustain them.

It is why from expereience the majority of yank preppers prefer group meetings, rendezvous etc to long range radio comms.
However it does NOT mean there is not a huge place for radio comms in prepping, but i do think it needs to evolve far more and be simplified both in specification and on this sub forum on how questions are answered. Refer back to my original post which was set specifically to see how the response played out.

I saw a set piece question be answered by everything except the sort of answer that was needed , because though the technogeeks enthuisism for their subject I think they inadvertantly often give the reply they THINK the original poster wants instead of what they ACTUALLY want.

I have absultely ZERO interest in wave lengths, di poles, licences, bands, SWRs, ionic disturbances, skipping, DXing etc, I am a PREPPER not a radio fan, its just another tool to my and those in my group, so like a Frontier Stove, Leatherman Wave, Barnett Bow etc I just want it to be simple, affordable, reliable and up to the job when I may be cold, tired, lost, scared shitless and stressed to death.

We must continue to develop this subject by SIMPLIFYING it I think.
But for my own groups needs at this time radio comms falls far short of what is even remotely useful.

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Look at CB radio 27 FM / CEPT from a SURVIVALIST point of view NOT from an enthuisiasts point of view.

Its got many of the facets we seek, Channels not frequencies, Affordable and Reliable,

BUT the handsets EAT batteries, 4 watts may be good enough for an educated radio enthusiast to speak to Mc Murdo base in Antartica but for Joe Prepper his rubber duck will maybe do a mile, a 20 inch extention twig will reach maybe 5 miles, chances are the air will be full of retards and halfwits so the CB rig needs ENCRYPTION or Cypher capability turned on / off simply.... so straight away its getting more complicated. Its NOT what I believe the average prepper needs.

Amateur band has more drawbacks than positives for the ordinary family guy prepper, and PMR is nearly but not quite a joke, but yet some PMRS have the encryption privacy doofahs they should have on CB ??

[Bug_out_Bag]

Hi NR, Without at all wanting to continue any dischord here but to answer your post, to be clear, Radio comms of any type will never duplicate telephone / mobile phone communication for ease of use. I have found CB an excellent way to establish connection in my local neoghbourhood. I have consciencously engaged with it: listened alot, spoken to alsorts of people over a long period of time and from this research have discovered there are some really good people 'out there' some of whom form part of my local comms network. I am sure there will be some reasonable operators in your area. You have just got your Firestick working up in the loft that now receives much better for you than rubber ducky which came with your handheld, don't be too quick to write off everyone just because you have not heard anything to your liking just yet.

You can be sure that after an event there will be many very clued up CBers will be using their hobby to best advantage, just like Paul.

Re radio hams after an event, you can be sure that many of these people WILL be around and making good use of all their technical knowhow and ability, just like LS. from what I understand, using repeaters for communication is a very small part of the hobby. I'm not sure why you're so
hung up about 'repeaters' ? This is not the big pin to burst the radio ham bubble that you think it is.

Anyway, I understand it can be frustrating but it is definitely worth perservering NR. There are some excellent resources for beginners on the net that can help you with what you need as well as the excellent cotributions here. There is no right, tried and tested setup, it depends on so many variables including your geographical location, etc etc. I have spent ages on mine, trying different things, building antennas to save money etc and after a LOT of effort including burnt fingers from soldering irons I have a setup which works for me. More than this, because I had to set up myself and do all the reasrch prior to finding this useful site, I have now a much greater understanding of how it works.

There will never be a one fix solution for everyone which is why it seems so complicated and why perhaps you believe no one answers your questions the way you'd like them answered.

Oh dear I seem to have rambled!

[NorthernRaider]

(4 November 2012, 21:42)Lightspeed Wrote: But some good news for you is that the EU had agreed to allow CB to increase power to 12w on SSB mode. The UK govenment is one of the only administrations in EU not to have ratified this new standard, but it is expected to do so in the next year or so. Then you will be able to find equipment that will fulfill your technical specification.

Bet I cant , the increase in power output is likely to be offset by even greater battery consumption, and SSB does not fit the criteria for basic prepping.

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Did a quick, very quick check on the UV5R and to get any practrical use you need to go via a repeater which makes it a no no for general prepping.

[Lightspeed]

(4 November 2012, 21:52)NorthernRaider Wrote:

(4 November 2012, 21:42)Lightspeed Wrote: But some good news for you is that the EU had agreed to allow CB to increase power to 12w on SSB mode. The UK govenment is one of the only administrations in EU not to have ratified this new standard, but it is expected to do so in the next year or so. Then you will be able to find equipment that will fulfill your technical specification.

Bet I cant , the increase in power output is likely to be offset by even greater battery consumption, and SSB does not fit the criteria for basic prepping.

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Did a quick, very quick check on the UV5R and to get any practrical use you need to go via a repeater which makes it a no no for general prepping.

:-)

12w is 12w it'll consume probably 20w of power to drive it whatever you do.

Best soolution for powering such devices is to choose units taht'll run from 12v power and than carry small sealed 12v accumulators to power them when portable.