Law post SHTF

[Mortblanc]

(9 February 2013, 12:15)bigpaul Wrote: i dont really envisage a "temporary" event, like a few power cuts, maybe a bit of civil unrest, slow food deliveries, a "blip" on the radar of life, maybe 6months to a year of "difficulties" then hey presto its all right again, its "business as usual", i believe when this "thing"-whatever it is- comes, its the end of civilisation as we know it, the end of everything that the modern age has provided, no electricity, no oil, no imported food, no mains water, no mains drainage, no food in the shops, empty petrol stations, no phones, no internet, no NOTHING, everything YOU need for life and living YOU have to go out and FIND, its not in the shops, you cant buy it from a catalogue, you either have to find it, make it or grow it yourself. as far as laws go, all laws are null and void, if you want rules you have to make them and ENFORCE them yourself.

At least that is what you are hoping, praying and begging for daily!

Freedom from restrictions of the inferiors so your superior abilities will allow you to soar and reach your full potential.

Perhaps it is due to the more receint historical past here in the states that I have a different perspective. Our ancestors, many of them Englishmen, entered an uncharted and untamed wilderness, and before they got off the convayence they had required each settler to agree to a set of basic laws, based on the English/Roman heritage.

No matter how far back in the woods, or how long it had been since you saw another human, or what borders you might have crossed, the basic laws still applied.

Even atrocities against the "outgroup" the Native Americans, were often prosecuted when comitted outside the sanction of war.

As soon as a group set a rude group of huts down in a remote clearing that had never been inhabited by humans, they were already covered under the laws of Great Britian.

If they broke the law they might not be prosceuted today or tomorrow, but eventually civilization would hold them responsible for their actions.

Outlaws, the ones that could not/would not abide by normal rules, lived a precarious existance between the savage and civilized. Either group would hold them accountable for their actions so they lived a life of constant seclusion, hiding and evasion. It hardly ever worked out well with early death the normal consciquence for their sociopathic behavior.

Even today, in the American culture/legal system, a "bounty hunter", as a private citizen, can cross borders, invade a home without a warrent, detain forceably and bring an outlaw to face a distant court. The civilization rewards them for their efforts.

Outlaw means just that, outside the protection of the law.

Even if GB suffered the remote possibility of a 90% die off of the population you would still have 7 million people in an area the size of my very crowded region here in the States which only has 4.5 million at this moment and has fully functioning civilization complete with laws, enforcement agencies and prisions for those that refuse to or have a compulsion not to conform.

The fall of Rome was a long time ago and with the global situation in place today the "fall" of any region will not have the same long term affect. It will not take 1000 years to reinvent the computer or reinstate the legal system.

[bigpaul]

(9 February 2013, 18:38)Mortblanc Wrote: At least that is what you are hoping, praying and begging for daily!

Freedom from restrictions of the inferiors so your superior abilities will allow you to soar and reach your full potential.

Perhaps it is due to the more receint historical past here in the states that I have a different perspective. Our ancestors, many of them Englishmen, entered an uncharted and untamed wilderness, and before they got off the convayence they had required each settler to agree to a set of basic laws, based on the English/Roman heritage.

No matter how far back in the woods, or how long it had been since you saw another human, or what borders you might have crossed, the basic laws still applied.

Even atrocities against the "outgroup" the Native Americans, were often prosecuted when comitted outside the sanction of war.

As soon as a group set a rude group of huts down in a remote clearing that had never been inhabited by humans, they were already covered under the laws of Great Britian.

If they broke the law they might not be prosceuted today or tomorrow, but eventually civilization would hold them responsible for their actions.

Outlaws, the ones that could not/would not abide by normal rules, lived a precarious existance between the savage and civilized. Either group would hold them accountable for their actions so they lived a life of constant seclusion, hiding and evasion. It hardly ever worked out well with early death the normal consciquence for their sociopathic behavior.

Even today, in the American culture/legal system, a "bounty hunter", as a private citizen, can cross borders, invade a home without a warrent, detain forceably and bring an outlaw to face a distant court. The civilization rewards them for their efforts.

Outlaw means just that, outside the protection of the law.

Even if GB suffered the remote possibility of a 90% die off of the population you would still have 7 million people in an area the size of my very crowded region here in the States which only has 4.5 million at this moment and has fully functioning civilization complete with laws, enforcement agencies and prisions for those that refuse to or have a compulsion not to conform.

The fall of Rome was a long time ago and with the global situation in place today the "fall" of any region will not have the same long term affect. It will not take 1000 years to reinvent the computer or reinstate the legal system.

interesting post, however i believe(and like you say, hope for) that the eventual SHTF event will wipe out so much of our "civilisation" that all laws will no longer exist-indeed the very society that made them will no longer exist. any society that eventually-after a LONG period of time-arises out of the ashes will be very different to the one that went before!

[Highlander]

Most laws are what we might call commons sense rules that come naturally,.. the no kill, no steal, the assault laws etc,... if those didnt survive,..what laws would you see coming to the fore?,.. or would you keep these more important laws, but change lesser ones?

[bigpaul]

(9 February 2013, 23:22)Highlander Wrote: Most laws are what we might call commons sense rules that come naturally,.. the no kill, no steal, the assault laws etc,... if those didnt survive,..what laws would you see coming to the fore?,.. or would you keep these more important laws, but change lesser ones?

i really cant see any of these laws being upheld IMMEDIATELY post SHTF, i mean it will probably be "kill or be killed", someone else who has nothing will want your food stores and will kill to eat, what you gonna do?"oh no, i cant kill him cos its against the old laws!" so he kills you? i know what i'm gonna do!!

[Scythe13]

(10 February 2013, 10:28)bigpaul Wrote:

(9 February 2013, 23:22)Highlander Wrote: Most laws are what we might call commons sense rules that come naturally,.. the no kill, no steal, the assault laws etc,... if those didnt survive,..what laws would you see coming to the fore?,.. or would you keep these more important laws, but change lesser ones?

i really cant see any of these laws being upheld IMMEDIATELY post SHTF, i mean it will probably be "kill or be killed", someone else who has nothing will want your food stores and will kill to eat, what you gonna do?"oh no, i cant kill him cos its against the old laws!" so he kills you? i know what i'm gonna do!!

That makes total sense. But under current law, could be viewed as self defence, in my opinion.

The thing is, even though immediately after TSHTF laws will become natural laws, kill or be killed, once 'civilisation' has been re-established, will we be held accountable for the 'crimes' we committed during the lawless era?

[bigpaul]

how can you be procecuted for "crimes" in a LAWLESS era?? the answer is in the question!

[Ghost]

I can see this discussion from both sides of the debate! So Here's a little scenario.

Post SHTF you are living in a lawless land, your bug out location is secure and fairly well hidden from prying eyes and so far you have avoided contact with the 'undesirables' that seem to be encroaching more and more upon your little idle .
One day you return from re setting your traps to discover that a small group of people have set up a camp near your BOL. Within a couple of days the animals from your traps start to go missing, you decide to approach the group and after an uneasy 'first contact' they invite you to eat at there fireside, they are cooking the animals from your traps!
When you confront them about this they reply that there are no laws stopping them from taking the food and although you are angry about it there is nothing you can do because you understand that it's every man for himself?
How's that world without rules working for you now BP?

How's that world without law or rules working for you now BP?

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(10 February 2013, 13:55)Ghost Wrote: I can see this discussion from both sides of the debate! So Here's a little scenario.

Post SHTF you are living in a lawless land, your bug out location is secure and fairly well hidden from prying eyes and so far you have avoided contact with the 'undesirables' that seem to be encroaching more and more upon your little idle .
One day you return from re setting your traps to discover that a small group of people have set up a camp near your BOL. Within a couple of days the animals from your traps start to go missing, you decide to approach the group and after an uneasy 'first contact' they invite you to eat at there fireside, they are cooking the animals from your traps!
When you confront them about this they reply that there are no laws stopping them from taking the food and although you are angry about it there is nothing you can do because you understand that it's every man for himself?
How's that world without rules working for you now BP?

---

(10 February 2013, 13:55)Ghost Wrote: I can see this discussion from both sides of the debate! So Here's a little scenario.

Post SHTF you are living in a lawless land, your bug out location is secure and fairly well hidden from prying eyes and so far you have avoided contact with the 'undesirables' that seem to be encroaching more and more upon your little idle .
One day you return from re setting your traps to discover that a small group of people have set up a camp near your BOL. Within a couple of days the animals from your traps start to go missing, you decide to approach the group and after an uneasy 'first contact' they invite you to eat at there fireside, they are cooking the animals from your traps!
When you confront them about this they reply that there are no laws stopping them from taking the food and although you are angry about it there is nothing you can do because you understand that it's every man for himself?
How's that world without rules working for you now BP?

How's that world without law or rules working for you now BP?

---

(10 February 2013, 13:55)Ghost Wrote: I can see this discussion from both sides of the debate! So Here's a little scenario.

Post SHTF you are living in a lawless land, your bug out location is secure and fairly well hidden from prying eyes and so far you have avoided contact with the 'undesirables' that seem to be encroaching more and more upon your little idle .
One day you return from re setting your traps to discover that a small group of people have set up a camp near your BOL. Within a couple of days the animals from your traps start to go missing, you decide to approach the group and after an uneasy 'first contact' they invite you to eat at there fireside, they are cooking the animals from your traps!
When you confront them about this they reply that there are no laws stopping them from taking the food and although you are angry about it there is nothing you can do because you understand that it's every man for himself?
How's that world without rules working for you now BP?

OOpps, Couldn't find an edit button!!

[NorthernRaider]

I would set a boobytrap for them if they were stealing from my traps, I would ensure they found a nice fat rabbit in the trap next time connected to something that went bang when they touched it.

[bigpaul]

(10 February 2013, 14:12)NorthernRaider Wrote: I would set a boobytrap for them if they were stealing from my traps, I would ensure they found a nice fat rabbit in the trap next time connected to something that went bang when they touched it.

or that rabbit would have a bit EXTRA in it-as in poisonous..like a bit of hemlock shall we say??

[Ghost]

But my point is that they are not breaking the law, because there is no law!

Is this where we adhere to a basic set of rules or understandings? And if so who sets those rules? And how do you know what those rules are?