Long term water purification

[Rush2112]

(4 April 2013, 00:57)Rush2112 Wrote: heres a very good pdf file regarding charcoal filtering. key points: if one is using activated carbon filter, no worries other than replacing the activated charcoal. filtering through regular charcoal still requires some sort of sterilization. Contrary to what many people believe, it is not necessary to boil water to make it safe to drink. Also contrary to what many people believe, it is usually not necessary to distill water to make it safe to drink. Heating water to 65º C (149º F) will kill all germs, viruses, and parasites.3 This process is called pasteurization and its use for milk is well known though milk requires slightly different time temperature combinations.

* forgot to put the time needed. keep at 65C for 30 mins. also, water must be clear. brackish water wont work.

this is just another option. u may not always be able to boil water. with pasteurization i could filter canal water thru my t-shirt into a clear bottle, put the bottle in a closed up car sitting in the sun and less than an hour i have safe water(as far as biological stuff). no heat, fuel, or smoke.

[Luci_ferson]

distilling water is unadvisable as it removes the micro nutrients (minerals)
as for the boiling and the 65oc etc. not all germs die at 65oc most will but not all.
milk pasteurisation is different.
milk is technically sterile the moment it comes out. same as breast milk.
I believe the 65oc of pasteurisation is only to remove pathogens that the mother could be carrying.
things like staphlococsaurus or however it is spelled will not die at 65oc neither will many others.
but that's unlikely to be in a cow.
nastys can get into water supplies.
id definitely boil risky water before drinking it, and not just heating it to 65oc for 30 mins.
also without a thermom it is difficult to know it is at 65oc for the whole time.

its easy to see if something is boiling.

Obviously I could be wrong (I often am) but I wouldn't take the risk, and I don't have a thermom, even if I did its likely to get broken.

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the pathogen that causes legionaires disease is found in stagnant water. im not sure if 65oc would kill that one either, (maybe it does but im not lucky )

[Tartar Horde]

I believe you can revitalise distilled water by simply decanting it into another container from a height. This forces Nitrogen, Oxygen and all the other elements into the water as air bubbles are created during pouring.
Water for me is the biggest problem, as without it we have to bug out. For me the simplest and safest way to treat water is simply to boil it, it has worked for millenia

[Luci_ferson]

the rason brine water don't pasteurise is because saltwater all has different boiling temps, and so therefore the 65oc mark would move also.

all water has some salt content though. it is only considered brine when it gets so high
it is measured by its GH and its Kh general hardness and carbonate hardness.
I wont be carrying a test kit for gh and kh.

as tartarhorde has pointed out water that is distilled can be simply revitalised .
decanting will put some of the basic gases back which is a start and mixing it with a small amount of other water would help with some of the minerals. most water has too many anyway.

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I love water chemistry , it keeps my fishies alive lol

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distilled water stores very well too. mixed with a little fresh filtered water it would make that small amount of fresh filtered water go a lot further.

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removing solids from water also affects the ph by the way.
less salts and more organics makes it acidic.
less organic and more salts makes it alkaline.

[Rush2112]

(4 April 2013, 12:07)Luci_ferson Wrote: distilling water is unadvisable as it removes the micro nutrients (minerals)
as for the boiling and the 65oc etc. not all germs die at 65oc most will but not all.
milk pasteurisation is different.
milk is technically sterile the moment it comes out. same as breast milk.
I believe the 65oc of pasteurisation is only to remove pathogens that the mother could be carrying.
things like staphlococsaurus or however it is spelled will not die at 65oc neither will many others.
but that's unlikely to be in a cow.
nastys can get into water supplies.
id definitely boil risky water before drinking it, and not just heating it to 65oc for 30 mins.
also without a thermom it is difficult to know it is at 65oc for the whole time.

its easy to see if something is boiling.

Obviously I could be wrong (I often am) but I wouldn't take the risk, and I don't have a thermom, even if I did its likely to get broken.

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the pathogen that causes legionaires disease is found in stagnant water. im not sure if 65oc would kill that one either, (maybe it does but im not lucky )

when it comes to something as important as water saftey i prefer to base my options on science.

"Dr. Metcalf challenges the widespread claim that water can only be made safe to drink by bringing it to a rapid boil for several minutes. He approaches the topic of water pasteurization using well-established concepts of food microbiology. If it actually took several minutes of a roiling boil to pasteurize water, then what heat treatment would be required to pasteurize milk? Since microbes survive better in milk than in water, and since the relatively heat-resistant bacteria that cause tuberculosis, need to be inactivated in milk, one might assume then that the dairy industry would have to boil milk for an extended period of time. But that is not the case. Most milk is flash pasteurized at 71.7°C (161°F) for 15 seconds and raw eggs are pasteurized at 60°C (140°F) in 3.5 minutes.



In his work, Dr. Metcalf cites extensive literature on the times and temperatures needed to kill pathogens in foods. He reports that the cysts of protozoa, bacteria and rotavirus, which cause most water-borne disease are inactivated rapidly at 60°C (140°F), and inactivated very rapidly at 65°C (149°F). He also notes that these cysts are sometimes able to resist treatment by chlorine, which is not always able to penetrate the cyst walls unlike 65°C water which heats the interior of the cyst and denatures critical enzymes.

you boil your water that's great! i was just trying to give another viable option. i'm sorry i did. for those few interested in more information on pasteurization check out the link.

http://solarcooking.wikia.com/wiki/Water_pasteurization

[Luci_ferson]

don't be sorry dude, you have no reason to be , your opinion is just as viable as my own.
theres certainly nothing wrong with a drs theory of pasteurisation of water.
I also prefer to base my water supply on science instead of theory.

how do you plan on making sure it stays at 65oc for that time span by the way. ( curious )
if its bubbling on the boil its one way of guaranteeing that.
so technically im pasteurising too.
just without a thermom as theres really no guarantee mine is at 100oc for the whole time either.

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as for bases on science a theory isn't a scientific fact one dr isn't enough to make it fact.
yet many drs and many people from med background including many scientists will back up the theory of boiling the water.
pasteurisation has been mentioned by the likes of ray mears and bear gryls, and both will tell you that its only advisable if you already trust the water.
if you suspect the water might carry disease and have no other choice, it should be boiled.

its not a perfect solution but its pretty good. and really if you only boil it as you need it , it don't realy take a lot of fuel.

and again. this is only my opinion, and like yours is also based on science.
but its pointless us arguing over which scientist or dr is correct. maybe they both are.

all I was trying to do is point out the few downfalls of pasteurisation, when really it takes no extra fuel to bring it to the boil and then simmer it there with a lid. wasn't trying to upset you or make your suggestion seem pointless.
so appologies if that's how it seemed.

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one advantage to pasteurisation is the fact you cant boil water without fire. but its possible to get it to around 68oc in other ways.
so pasteurisation is perfect for that. but id need to know the water wasn't diseased.

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I did check on legionares and yes pasteurisation will kill it, it dies at 60oc by the way.

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Temperatures between 60°C and 74°C may not kill pathogenic bacteria but will not allow them to grow. Temperatures above 74°C will kill most pathogenic bacteria. ... Pathogenic bacteria need a water supply to survive. ... than 2 hours might be long enough for the pathogens to multiple enough to cause a foodborne illness.

theres another opinion taken from another source.

which is why I said may as well boil and not take the risk.

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notice even at above 730c it only says most , and not ALL

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74 oc

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http://www.toronto.ca/health/foodhandler/fh_14.htm

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and this is why I mentioned the ph and other water parameter in my earlier post.

4. pH

pH is the measure of the level of acid and can range from 0 to 14. Pathogenic bacteria need a neutral environment to survive. High or low pH will not kill pathogenic bacteria but will not allow them to grow.

Tap water has a pH of 7 (neutral), javex has a pH of 13 (alkaline) and vinegar has a pH of 3 (acidic).

even ph affects the pathogens in water and temperatures ability to kill them.
do you know the ph of the water you plan to pasteurise.

its all just science to me lol

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I didn't mean to disregard your post on pasteurisation, I had looked into it myself.
sadly I found a few weaknesses in it and for simplicity decided to boil it.
as long as its above 74oc it should kill most pathogens and if its bubling I know its above 74oc without a thermometer.

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and that's regardless of its kh gh tds or ph

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Also I apologise if its the way I say things that is wrong. my social skills and grasp of social language is garbage. no offence is meant, im just not good at it at all.
Luckily people that know me know this, otherwise id have been knocked out more times than I have.
and that's been a few times too many already lol