Pistol Crossbow

[Skean Dhude]

He may have said it is not scientific but neither are most of the readers. They look and see but do not understand. We must take care we don't mislead these people by pointing these things out.

In real tests they use chunks of meat under real clothing to test. No objects that have no similarity to the targets we are discussing.

Misleading people can give them a false sense of security and this could make them choose the wrong tools for the job.

[Tartar Horde]

Would there be any consensus on a test material for testing these crossbows. A large chunk of meat is not going to be cheap these days, and melons etc are too soft, maybe pumpkins.
I shot mine into a 3D Deer target, which is to be honest quite dense and at 30 yds it was bouncing off.

[Highlander]

I was going to do a test on my next deer carcass before cutting it up, I could add a shirt, jumper and jacket, and do a real good test,... but at the moment I have three freezers full of venison, so wont have the room for the meat.

.... but I will get it done sometime through the winter

[Timelord]

(11 November 2013, 19:19)Skvez Wrote:

(9 November 2013, 01:52)Timelord Wrote: Throw a teacup. It will be just as effective

Now you're being silly.
A crossbow bolt will do significantly more damage than a teacup.
Is a crossbow pointless - no. Is it as good as an AR 15 - no
Would an AR15 kill my attacker instantly 100% of the time even if I had one - no
A Crossbow (pistol or otherwise) is legal, I can own and practice with it.
Few fights are won in a single blow. If I can damage my opponent *before they close to melee range* I have a much better chance of winning the melee fight than I do if I just stand there like a prune waiting for them to close the distance.
The only other things you've suggested (hammers and bricks) have less penetration than a crossbow bolt, less range and are not as accurate.
Forget reloading, fire the pistol crossbow once then switch to melee mode (stick, knife etc).
The pistol crossbow should be considered as one piece in a defensive strategy including entanglement/ spike traps and a melee weapon.

(11 November 2013, 00:19)BDG Wrote: A BB from a catapult will do similar damage in a vital area and will transfer all of its energy in a non vital area.

Your mileage may vary but my crossbow bolts have a spiked end that penetrate better than a BB and I can aim the crossbow more accurately than I can a catapult, and I can fire it one handed holding my melee weapon ready in the other hand.

You don't seem to quite get it! It is not all about "penetration" in optimal conditions.... Why does a hammer or a brick score badly on penetration?? Why do you think they would need to penetrate? Why is "penetration" the only focus? Why is throwing a teacup any more ridiculous than using a weapon that has poor odds of achieving the objective AND in so doing, use up any valuable time/advantage you may have been able to capitalize on.. This is basically a question which comes down to -- Why use a poor to mediocre tool to do a limited focused job when you could select a different tool or tactical combination that is a of a better quality design and has better proven odds of the result you want and that it may not be restricted to specific scenario conditions to the same degree? This is your and your loved ones lives we are talking about here. There is more tactically to the situation than just one shot penetration ability and another weapon to hand. Some folk talk about historical examples where pistol crossbows were used with rapiers. What exactly do they know of this before avid preppers go off and try to emulate it? The crossbows of history make the type of modern examples being suggested look like toys... FACT! and poor quality, unreliable ones at that. Rapiers need a very high skill level to be proficient in or you will be severely disadvantaged in their use to your detriment. Having a (suitable & familiar) secondary melee weapon ready to hand is ideal and advisable BUT it still does not justify selecting a ranged weapon of poor successful probability.. A house brick or large rock is proven through history to work well as a short ranged weapon. It is also disconcerting and a deterrent. I am not saying it is a good choice, just that it is not particularly any less effective for those last few seconds of range. There are other choices. A light javelin has considerably more impact and kinetic energy dump than any crossbow bolt. A spear can reach out and touch people again and again without reloading/or not as is the case.. A small throwing axe is exceedingly damaging and an amazing mind changer, while still usable in the hand if caught by surprise before the change to primary melee weapon. Anything which arcs in flight down onto the upper part of an aggressors head/shoulders is a greater threat/deterrent and possible damage to the advancing aggressor. It also makes them try to block the objects arc, which in the case of them holding any kind of rudimentary shielding device - will not only cause them to block their line of sight, but will also open up their defence and complicate their immediate thought patterns. whether it hits or not it will still distract the aggressor and hand you a tactical bonus if you are prepared to capitalize on it. There are other weapons, these are just an example. The cheap commercially available pistol crossbows being discussed are all round poor. Not useless, just Poor. Yes they can penetrate in the right conditions etc etc, BUT they are no more suitable than that stiletto heel on a stick! Get a proper tool for the job, not a cheap modern imitation of dubious potential. This is not a game.. if it is, then the stiletto heel on a stick is just as valid.. That is my grounded and researched advice. Those with a bit of nounce might take it on board, for the wheel reinventors, then I wish you a safe journey. TL. out.

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(15 November 2013, 18:37)Timelord Wrote:

(11 November 2013, 19:19)Skvez Wrote:

(9 November 2013, 01:52)Timelord Wrote: Throw a teacup. It will be just as effective

Now you're being silly.
A crossbow bolt will do significantly more damage than a teacup.
Is a crossbow pointless - no. Is it as good as an AR 15 - no
Would an AR15 kill my attacker instantly 100% of the time even if I had one - no
A Crossbow (pistol or otherwise) is legal, I can own and practice with it.
Few fights are won in a single blow. If I can damage my opponent *before they close to melee range* I have a much better chance of winning the melee fight than I do if I just stand there like a prune waiting for them to close the distance.
The only other things you've suggested (hammers and bricks) have less penetration than a crossbow bolt, less range and are not as accurate.
Forget reloading, fire the pistol crossbow once then switch to melee mode (stick, knife etc).
The pistol crossbow should be considered as one piece in a defensive strategy including entanglement/ spike traps and a melee weapon.

(11 November 2013, 00:19)BDG Wrote: A BB from a catapult will do similar damage in a vital area and will transfer all of its energy in a non vital area.

Your mileage may vary but my crossbow bolts have a spiked end that penetrate better than a BB and I can aim the crossbow more accurately than I can a catapult, and I can fire it one handed holding my melee weapon ready in the other hand.

You don't seem to quite get it! It is not all about "penetration" in optimal conditions.... Why does a hammer or a brick score badly on penetration?? Why do you think they would need to penetrate? Why is "penetration" the only focus? Why is throwing a teacup any more ridiculous than using a weapon that has poor odds of achieving the objective AND in so doing, use up any valuable time/advantage you may have been able to capitalize on.. This is basically a question which comes down to -- Why use a poor to mediocre tool to do a limited focused job when you could select a different tool or tactical combination that is a of a better quality design and has better proven odds of the result you want and that it may not be restricted to specific scenario conditions to the same degree? This is your and your loved ones lives we are talking about here. There is more tactically to the situation than just one shot penetration ability and another weapon to hand. Some folk talk about historical examples where pistol crossbows were used with rapiers. What exactly do they know of this before avid preppers go off and try to emulate it? The crossbows of history make the type of modern examples being suggested look like toys... FACT! and poor quality, unreliable ones at that. Rapiers need a very high skill level to be proficient in or you will be severely disadvantaged in their use to your detriment. Having a (suitable & familiar) secondary melee weapon ready to hand is ideal and advisable BUT it still does not justify selecting a ranged weapon of poor successful probability.. A house brick or large rock is proven through history to work well as a short ranged weapon. It is also disconcerting and a deterrent. I am not saying it is a good choice, just that it is not particularly any less effective for those last few seconds of range. There are other choices. A light javelin has considerably more impact and kinetic energy dump than any crossbow bolt. A spear can reach out and touch people again and again without reloading/or not as is the case.. A small throwing axe is exceedingly damaging and an amazing mind changer, while still usable in the hand if caught by surprise before the change to primary melee weapon. Anything which arcs in flight down onto the upper part of an aggressors head/shoulders is a greater threat/deterrent and possible damage to the advancing aggressor. It also makes them try to block the objects arc, which in the case of them holding any kind of rudimentary shielding device - will not only cause them to block their line of sight, but will also open up their defence and complicate their immediate thought patterns. whether it hits or not it will still distract the aggressor and hand you a tactical bonus if you are prepared to capitalize on it. There are other weapons, these are just an example. The cheap commercially available pistol crossbows being discussed are all round poor. Not useless, just Poor. Yes they can penetrate in the right conditions etc etc, BUT they are no more suitable than that stiletto heel on a stick! Get a proper tool for the job, not a cheap modern imitation of dubious potential. This is not a game.. if it is, then the stiletto heel on a stick is just as valid.. That is my grounded and researched advice. Those with a bit of nounce might take it on board, for the wheel reinventors, then I wish you a safe journey. TL. out.

You think a brick has less range than a crossbow bolt?? Again, a lack of understanding of ballistic properties. The key word is "effective" That is effective range! A cheap commercial pistol crossbow firing a lightweight bolt (as they are) will result in a projectile with low inertia and mass. The inertial energy will drop off fast as the bolt travels and so as the range increases, the bolt will rapidly lose its penetration ability. There is vitually no energy dump anyway. Throw a brick at someone and even though the range might not be as good, the effective range is what counts and the brick will lose very very little and will dump most of its energy in/onto the target. Bingo and don't people know this when they see one arcing through the air towards them. Same for the hammer but more focused and easier to wield. Also good as a back up if no time to bring the other weapon on target.. A ranged bludgeoning weapon would be far more efficient at immediately disabling or reducing the effectiveness of an aggressors ability than a cheap lightweight pistol crossbow bolt of dubious incapacitating provenance..

[Talon]

When I was a lot younger I used to use Plasticine as a cheap poor man's substitute for Ballistic Putty.Granted it's not perfect and the penetration varies greatly depending on the temperature of the Plasticine.
I used to make a square block of it and put it in the fridge when I wanted to test my latest tuning attempt on one of my Air Rifles,(the same thickness every time and i used to chill it for a set time to try and gain consistent results)

Not exactly scientific,but it did give me a pretty good estimation of the penetrating power of various pellets and any tuning mods i did to my Rifle

[Skvez]

(15 November 2013, 18:37)Timelord Wrote: Why is throwing a teacup any more ridiculous than using a … [Pistol Crossbow]

Do you want to come and stand 20 feet away from me. You can throw 10 teacups at me and I’ll shoot 10 crossbow bolts at you? At the end of that you might have scratched me and you’ll be dead or dying.

(15 November 2013, 18:37)Timelord Wrote: A spear can reach out and touch people again and again without reloading/or not as is the case..

A spear is a melee weapon not a range weapon (unless it’s thrown in which case it can’t be used again and again, except by your opponent throwing it back at you). We’re discussing range weapons.

(15 November 2013, 18:37)Timelord Wrote: You don't seem to quite get it! It is not all about "penetration" in optimal conditions.... Why does a hammer or a brick score badly on penetration?? Why do you think they would need to penetrate? Why is "penetration" the only focus?

A hammer or brick scores badly on accuracy. You may be able to throw a brick 20 feet but you probably can’t hit a target reliably at that distance and if the target is moving by arcing in you’re probably going to miss infront or behind. Even modern artillery has this problem. A crossbow flies (nearly) straight and so a charging opponent will run up the flightpath of the bolt which is not the case for a brick.

(15 November 2013, 18:37)Timelord Wrote: BUT they are no more suitable than that stiletto heel on a stick! .

Once again pointy things on sticks are Melee weapons not range weapons.

[Mortblanc]

http://www.myscienceproject.org/gelatin.html

[Scythe13]

I think this conversation is really bringing out some brilliant information, and it's so heated that I doubt it'll be killed off by my comment. But, this is my 'thug' view on the situation.

To give you an idea about where I'm coming from. I have never been shot by a crossbow. I have shot crossbows and archery bows (recurve, compound, and a few older examples e.g. straight bow). I have had bricks thrown at me (as a group, not specifically a load of people throwing bricks at just me. Think of it as 2 groups of people that disagreed with each other trying to sort out their problems). I have thrown bricks (for legal reasons we'll say it was in my back garden and not at a person on an opposing group).

I have cut down 3 trees in the garden with a machete. I can use an axe, have done a little fencing (taught in uni by the Welsh Champion...he wasn't the champion when he taught me, but he won the Welsh championship the next year), and I have had a bit of fun with the battle reenactment (viking look alike) society at uni.

Also, I have 'semi-combat' (it wasn't a fight to the death, so I don't think of it as full-combat, but it was certainly full contact!!! haha) experience in the cage, with a record of 6-1-1.

So this is my view on things...

Firstly, if you have a crossbow, and I have teacups, I don't have to do much to distract you before you get off that first shot. A load of cups thrown at you will make an accurate shot difficult to say the least. It's a natural reaction to flinch, duck, close your eyes, or turn away, from a projectile coming at your head. So that should make the shot from a crossbow off target and thus unlikely to be fatal, if my thought pattern is reasonable.

Further to this, my new friend in the mil is teaching me about weapons, and has explained some blindingly obvious things and some less obvious things. One of the obvious things applies to this situation. He said about using a handgun, that if you shoot someone in the head, you're shooting at a very thick and hard target. There's a reason the skull is so thick...for protection. So even if you shoot a bullet, you're hitting a thick, hard, curved surface, and the chances of a glance are 'up there'. You'd be best to shoot them in the eye, if you're accurate enough. It's soft and leads to a much cleaner kill. This makes sense and applied to this situation. If you get shot in the skull and it glances, you're unlikely to get a second shot, because although they'll be hurt, they'll also be p**sed off and still combat effective.

Next thought on this, what distance are we talking about, and what situation?

A crossbow bolt will hurt, do damage, and potentially kill a person. I can't disagree. However, over a 20 feet distance, so could a brick. The thing is, I would rather trust my life to something I knew how to use. Pulling the trigger on a crossbow is easy enough, but doing that when under a barrage of other items...not so easy. I know I can throw a brick back, so I'll stick with what I know.

As for weaponry. When fencing, not just because I was duelling with a champion, but regardless of who I was up against, I was made to look like an uncoordinated idiot. I can't remember which sword was the heaviest, but apparently that could just bat away any other sword, but the speed and skill needed to do so was not something I was able to do. Turns out, they were right. Fencing simply wasn't for me. Even when I was using the weird octopus style grips. I could learn to do it, but I didn't have the patience...or physique haha. So if you're using a small sword, you need to be very skilled on what to do with it.

Next up, the battle reenactment group. These guys were a right laugh. Making porridge in a hefting big cauldron thing on the far end of the hockey pitch...hysterical! The interesting thing was, you would get in trouble for using full force. For one simple reason "any heavy weapon swung with enough strength, will cause damage. Our insurance doesn't cover that kind of thing." Obvious, but also something to consider when up against someone else. If you're untrained with a rapier, and I get to charge gung-ho with my machete and a single tea cup, you'll either bat away the tea cup, and get your arm hacked into, or you'll get hit by the tea cup, have your blade kicked out of the way, and still have your arm hacked into. I'm not saying I'm superman or anything, but I'm a person determined to get what you have, because my family is depending on it. I'm going to go all hell fury against you! Unless you're willing to do the same, you'll be in a world of hurt! Okay, what if I didn't have a tea cup, but a handful of gravel, or sand? Now we're playing a whole new ball-game! Advantage me! Even if you had a crossbow, that distraction will make the shot difficult, and we're back to glancing or non-fatal shots.

Okay, and lastly...I seem to recall someone talking about defending stairs. Not sure who said this, but I'll go from this view point.

Does your set of stairs have enough space for you to swing a machete? But most rapiers are longer, so how will you use one of them? Yes you could just stab and jab, but if they have leather gloves and grab the spine of the blade and move it to the side, so they can get through. What about a spear? It's going to keep people at the bottom of the stairs until they manage to grab the wooden part of the spear. But again manoeuvrability would be an issue, in my view. You'd need to be skilled in use of the spear to be able to have a high level of control in such a confined area.

Personally, if defending the stairs. I'd poor petrol down them and set fire to the whole place, making sure I had an escape route though. If they've made it to the stairs, and you don't have a gun, they'll get to you eventually. Whether they decide to stake you out and attack when you're asleep, or just stand at the bottom of the stairs, or outside, and just throw bricks at you all day long, or make a shield from a door and line it with metal from road signs, or something like that. If they're in your house, you have already lost this battle.

Strike 1 point for a gun licence, 2 points for a shotgun licence with special load ammo!

[Midnitemo]

most of what is S13 sounds reasonable , stairs are just a choke point where you have the high ground and can't be flanked..better choice than most to make a stand depending on what you're up against, hallway works too but you lose the high ground advantage.i aim to use a spear/mini pike battle hammer combo with a shield as my last ditch defence of the stairs(with a shotgun backup)

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if you only repelled you're invaders rather than killed them i would expect the house to get fired thats why once i've checked them then i'll be going on the attack.

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as for handguns central body mass .. head shot is the coup de grace when there down and not presenting a threat....pistol shooting is harder than most people think and requires practice/practice and more practice which is something we wont be able to do(hunkering down,lack of ammo)...central body mass is a bigger target and you in all probability will get the rounds on target.

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S13 as for fireing the staircase...were i the attacker i would withdraw outside and wait for a coughing choking rabble to exit peicemeal and despatch them.....you being above the fumes and flames are going to be the ones feeling the effects.

[Scythe13]

(16 November 2013, 12:23)Midnitemo Wrote: S13 as for fireing the staircase...were i the attacker i would withdraw outside and wait for a coughing choking rabble to exit peicemeal and despatch them.....you being above the fumes and flames are going to be the ones feeling the effects.

Once you've done that, I'd expect you to get out, thus the escape route comment. I'm not a fan of the idea of setting your house on fire while you sit around and wait for it to burn down. That's called suicide.