To FAC or not to?

[Waylander]

(24 August 2013, 21:02)NorthernRaider Wrote: A driving licence is not going to attract police attention during a period of civil unrest, insurgency, war or other state of emergency, an FAC MAY do so.

It never has before

Waylander

[BDG]

(24 August 2013, 21:02)NorthernRaider Wrote: A driving licence is not going to attract police attention during a period of civil unrest, insurgency, war or other state of emergency, an FAC MAY do so.

And what attending MAY it attract? The police come to your house and take your firearm from your gun cupboard? Which would leave you in the position you are in now - with no firearm.

Alternatively, you could choose to be out shooting when they call, you might have had a visit to take it already but they do not know due to bureaucratic error or you could have sold it to a registered fire arms dealer and sorry the info has not got to you in the post yet old bean their is a period of civil unrest / insurgency / war or other state of emergency happening here.

I do think in some cases, people would like a firearm as they see it as something that is useful to a 'prepper'. A firearm is in no way useful to a 'prepper'. If you are buying it in case you find we are without rule of law and you need it for defence / food gathering, it is more than likely, you are going to find it has no use to you, as the odds of that happening in your lifetime are slim.

If you want to shoot and you are willing to join a club or have access to land and want to shoot game or targets, get a shotgun or firearm. It will be useful to you should you ever need it.

If you want a firearm 'just in case', spend your money on some cam cream to put on while you hide in the long grass brewing tea on twigs on the local nature reserve with a Rambo knife hidden in your pack.

Really, it comes down to the fact you want to put the time and effort in. The police are not going to arrest or execute you or your family before or after they ask for or take your firearm from you.

If you are worried about having other things in your house, do not have them on open display. Should TSHTF you will not be getting an in depth search of your property - look at when police search houses in normal times - you are looking at least a dozen bodies being on site for half a day. How many FAC and SGC holders in your area - plus, remember, TSHTF already and the police have other things to keep them busy.

Strategically, by having a FAC or SGC you are putting yourself in the position with the police that you are a guy that has been checked out and passed and the law has judged you positively reliable.

[Scythe13]

BDG, you have hit upon something I have been toying with for a while.

One of the criteria for being allowed a FAC is that you are mentally sane and not a danger to the public (character references). This says, to the list watchers 'These people are sane and not a risk to society.' Being in that 'bracket' of society can only be a good thing.

[Mortblanc]

Yes, I am beginning to have the feeling that such loud protest and boycott is a side effect of the sour grapes syndrome.

[NorthernRaider]

(24 August 2013, 21:28)Waylander Wrote:

(24 August 2013, 21:02)NorthernRaider Wrote: A driving licence is not going to attract police attention during a period of civil unrest, insurgency, war or other state of emergency, an FAC MAY do so.

It never has before

Waylander

Yes it has during both world wars when HMG spent huge amounts of time siezing guns because inWW1 they feaered a communist revolution, and in WW2 they feared a fith column. Controls were also put in place from WW1 over the ownership or radio equipment and during the cold war other items of equipment were severely restricted.

---

I simply could not disagree more with a post than I do with yours mon ami, and I honestly cannot be bothered to go through the same debate I have had time after time for the last 40 years.

(24 August 2013, 22:51)BDG Wrote:

(24 August 2013, 21:02)NorthernRaider Wrote: A driving licence is not going to attract police attention during a period of civil unrest, insurgency, war or other state of emergency, an FAC MAY do so.

And what attending MAY it attract? The police come to your house and take your firearm from your gun cupboard? Which would leave you in the position you are in now - with no firearm.

Alternatively, you could choose to be out shooting when they call, you might have had a visit to take it already but they do not know due to bureaucratic error or you could have sold it to a registered fire arms dealer and sorry the info has not got to you in the post yet old bean their is a period of civil unrest / insurgency / war or other state of emergency happening here.

I do think in some cases, people would like a firearm as they see it as something that is useful to a 'prepper'. A firearm is in no way useful to a 'prepper'. If you are buying it in case you find we are without rule of law and you need it for defence / food gathering, it is more than likely, you are going to find it has no use to you, as the odds of that happening in your lifetime are slim.

If you want to shoot and you are willing to join a club or have access to land and want to shoot game or targets, get a shotgun or firearm. It will be useful to you should you ever need it.

If you want a firearm 'just in case', spend your money on some cam cream to put on while you hide in the long grass brewing tea on twigs on the local nature reserve with a Rambo knife hidden in your pack.

Really, it comes down to the fact you want to put the time and effort in. The police are not going to arrest or execute you or your family before or after they ask for or take your firearm from you.

If you are worried about having other things in your house, do not have them on open display. Should TSHTF you will not be getting an in depth search of your property - look at when police search houses in normal times - you are looking at least a dozen bodies being on site for half a day. How many FAC and SGC holders in your area - plus, remember, TSHTF already and the police have other things to keep them busy.

Strategically, by having a FAC or SGC you are putting yourself in the position with the police that you are a guy that has been checked out and passed and the law has judged you positively reliable.

[Bug_out_Bag]

As BDG Says "And what attending MAY it attract? The police come to your house and take your firearm from your gun cupboard? Which would leave you in the position you are in now - with no firearm. "

I couldn't agree more! What's to lose?

[NorthernRaider]

(25 August 2013, 09:46)Bug_out_Bag Wrote: As BDG Says "And what attending MAY it attract? The police come to your house and take your firearm from your gun cupboard? Which would leave you in the position you are in now - with no firearm. "

I couldn't agree more! What's to lose?

Everything else you have in the house, during a civil emergency just remember what we call stockpiles and caches during times of peace and plenty become incidents of HOARDING or Blackmarketeers supplies to the authorities during a crisis. And with the current hysteria driven fear of islamic extremism many books, meterials, supplies etc could also be deemed as possibly being useful to terror cells.

There are laws in place under the emergency powers act that allows the state to sieze anything they need for the duration, guns, radios, vehicles, fuel stocks, food, medical supplies. and remember that since the end of the cold war the govt got rid of their emergency supplies like rescue boats, green goddesses, Austin champ civil defence fleets, the national reserve of food, national reserve of medical kit etc etc todays government is almost entirely reliant in a crisis on the privately own stocks and supplies of kit.

EG the govt keeps a register ( or it used to when I was younger) of every 4x4 vehicle in the UK which it can and possibly would sieze during a civil emergency.

So ( hypothetically) if the cops came a calling to secure your guns and start looking around and see water filters, piles of rations, stores or jerry cans, medical supplies, books, etc they may have been told to watch out for other bulk supplies they can conficate.

Theres plenty of further reading on UK war laws and emergency planning available a good place to start is by reading War Plan UK by Duncan Campbell.

Still at the end of the day if people want to put themselves on official registers and consider the risk acceptable then good luck to them, I wish them well as only time will tell who is right.

[Midnitemo]

I own some shotguns not as an emergency tool but as a leisure item , i wouldn't recomend anybody getting one just incase but if you're going to hunt or clay shoot with it then go for it, theres no doubt it would be a worthwhile thing to have if tshtf , somebody said earlier in the thread that shooters are a great bunch and i fully agree with that.

[Waylander]

(25 August 2013, 10:13)NorthernRaider Wrote: EG the govt keeps a register ( or it used to when I was younger) of every 4x4 vehicle in the UK which it can and possibly would sieze during a civil emergency.

Yes, it's the size of a kingsize mattress, wrapped in tin foil

Waylander

P.S. DVLA keeps a register of every car in the country, not just 4x4's

[BDG]

(25 August 2013, 10:13)NorthernRaider Wrote: So ( hypothetically) if the cops came a calling to secure your guns and start looking around and see water filters, piles of rations, stores or jerry cans, medical supplies, books, etc they may have been told to watch out for other bulk supplies they can conficate.

So going on hypotheticals:

1. There has been a SHTF event to the point the government fear societal collapse
2. The government then send the police to every FAC and SGC holder in the UK - that's near 150,000 people and 500,000 people respectively - that is holders of certificates, many have several items on their certificates.


Keep in mind, the police forces of the UK have around 155,000 officers. What percentage are trained in handling and using firearms? Less than 10% is my educated guess - say 15000. These 15000 are going to be budgeted for dealing with the situation that is causing TS to HTF. There is no slack in the system. Same with normal cops. Country wide, the police might muster at any given time a couple of thousand people to confiscate guns.

Say 2000 police - at the extreme most - could be spared. To visit 600,000 people. Add in the cops would be going around in pairs. Each pair will have to visit 600 licence holders. They are not going to be doing it on the 11pm-7am shift. They are unlikely to be doing it 7pm-11pm as what ever is kicking off will be kicking off. They will probably be unlikely to be going much of it for the first hour of the early, as they will be at briefing, sorting out everything for the shifts and comms for the day and so on.

They add in a couple of breaks and you might get 6 hours of confiscations a day. If lucky, they would be able to get out to one FAC / SGC holder an hour, get the guns then secure them back the station - if they can get them.

A thousand pairs doing this a day, say they get in the properties out of 4 of the six people they visit a day and they have enough staff to keep on doing this, law and order does not collapse, it is going to take 120 days or so to get around everyone.

Most FAC holders and SGC owners know many - I would guess at at least 10 others, in most cases more and are part of networks such as gun clubs that any confiscation could not be done in secret.

While the police will be keeping their eyes open, as they always do, they will have no time to go snooping. Every time I have been around when the FAC officer come around, I have asked them if they want to check the security - sure, they want to check the cabinet and the room it is in, they ask about key storage and how you keep them, but they always check the security of the house from the outside. They do not look in other rooms.

So keep your kit out of the room your gun safe is in. Keep it in your shed, behind your tools, or in the big plastic ketter box the kids bikes are in. Keep your canned goods in the pantry. If your house looks like a UN supply depot, you are doing it wrong.

I have a chest freezer full of vegetables and game and fish. It is because I grow veg and store excess, shoot game and fish. It looks normal. It is normal, but it is also being prepared.

Everthing that could have a secondary use as something it is not already has a primary use now, used as fertiliser, animal husbandry products, building products and so on now. It looks normal because it is normal.

As a final point, if the police are going around taking items from FAC and SGC holders, they are going to be looking at a lot of other people, locking up known subversives, removing people from areas 'for their own protection' and many other things.

Within a couple of days, the whole country would be in revolt and you would have bugged out with your FA the police did not have the man power to come and take.